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  • purchasing weapons without paper trails

    with the way things are going, i have decided to start purchasing my weapons without paper trails!!!!! i fear that by filling out them damn 4473 forms, and then waiting for them to call them in, that all the information is going to be stored permanently!!!! and this info will be used at a later date! yes i could forgoe the route of having it called in, if i was to get a concealed carry permit, but that would definately put me on more radars!!!! so what i have decided to do form now on, is to only buy cash and carry firearms! private sales, from private individuals!!!! that way when i buy them, they will not have any real trail to me, therefore, they will not know that i have them!!!!! as anyone who has seen the movie red dawn, the first thing the cuban officer genreal bella did was send some of his troops to the local sporting goods store, to obtain the 4473 files!!!! and from those files he would round up private arms, and the people that owned them!!!!! so the way i look at it, if the reds did it in that movie, it wouldnt be far fetched to think that our own jack booted government thugs will do the same thing to us!!!! call me tin foil, call me paranoid, call me everything but late for dinner!!!! but i would just call myself cautious!

  • #2
    Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

    I figure that I'm on so many lists that there isn't any use trying to hide. Between my military and law enforement experience, my FFL (now expired), my posts here and elsewhere, and the hundreds of guns I've bought over the years, Anyone that is interested in looking knows that I'm armed to the teeth and highly skilled.

    If I'm ever targeted there will be no denying it...

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    • #3
      Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

      If you have never purchased a gun before and keep your mouth shut that might work. However if you have ever purchased one you are in the system.

      I am proud of my firearm ownership and have nothing to hide.

      Like ISC I am on lists already as a gun owner but have never been arested or anything related.

      I do know last year the ATF went through the records of the gun dealer I use the most. They recorded the names of anyone who purchased more than 5 (I don't remember the exact number but it was just a few) guns in the last year. The dealer told me and appologized to me the next time I came in because my name was on their list. He thinks they were looking for people making straw sales.

      Thx-Ace

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      • #4
        Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

        I don't worry about paper trails. 90 million Americans own over 220+ million firearms, they can't confiscate them all at once!
        I was bored shooting 50 bmg rifles so I bought a 20mm!

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

          Originally posted by partisan50 View Post
          I don't worry about paper trails. 90 million Americans own over 220+ million firearms, they can't confiscate them all at once!
          Yeah, NK. I've been backgrounded twice I can think of for firearm purchases, so I'm in the system. However, my purchases were both very sedate hunting arms. (sedate until the lead hits you in the stomach, of course). So I guess when I start buying the "scaryer looking stuff" I might just look like one of the complacent hunter types if I buy only from individuals.

          I just noticed the character who started this thread is banned. What was he banned for, using too many exclamation points?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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          • #6
            Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

            btw, you needn't think I have only two guns. I have several that were given to me, and one more I bought from an individual w/o paperwork, plus in the past I have bought several guns from individuals w/o paperwork. I just remembered now that I did get backgrounded for one more, making 3. That other one was the MN Russian which I sold later. I guess that does put me barely onto the "scary military-type guns" list. . . . .

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            • #7
              Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

              Well, as the guy who has the experience here from having the ATF put the hammer down, I will offer some observations. My older writings on the subject are buried somewhere at savvysurvivor.com

              Investigations on whether or not you are armed can come from a lot of directions. You can be careful about buying your guns privately, but then someone will figure something is up if they audit your credit and ATM purchases and find you were buying gun cleaning kits and ammo. Likewise, they could just talk to your friends, or have someone take a look around your house. Leave any accessories laying around? Spare mags? Gun "paraphinelia"?

              Then there is the gamble that you might be getting a stolen gun. A lot of LE agencies now have toll free numbers you can call to see if a gun is stolen, but they always ask for personal identifying info, and they can just go ahead and lie to you too. You might also get stuck with a gun that could have been traced to a crime. There is also the very common shakedown tactic used by all manner of "authorities". It is always a variation of "hey we have a report on this gun being stolen, you are better off giving it up right now, you are in a lot of trouble.."

              Then there is straw purchasing. Not entirely illegal if you are a non-prohibited person. That basically is that someone in your circle of people is the designated gun buyer. Optimally, this will be the oldest person, so that when they pass on, the information on the disposition of the guns passes with them. You get the best of both worlds this way, since you can prove the history of your gun if you want to, but the government does not have a very accurate record of where the gun is. You can find old guys who do this sort of thing in the various retirement communities and they get to be familiar faces at the gun shows, but getting them to do anything for you is a real art. None of them want to spend the remains of their days in jail.

              Then there is up front legal buying. In theory, you should be getting the best prices if you are the guy going to the gun shop to sign the first set of papers for a gun, and you should be getting the honor of having the stuff new. It is fully insurable, and usable for professional purposes (like working as a licensed security guard). All of the guns I carried or used in anything related to security employment were 100% legal and registered. Once you reach the point of buying a hundred or so gun in your adult life, .gov pretty much just calls that "a helluva lot" so a few more does not matter a whole lot, but I would venture to guess that you would want some "off the books" guns on the side. I reached the point where I had so many guns circulate through my collection that the feds pretty much know what my standard answer is on any particular one. "Dude, I don't know who I sold that to, I had a bunch of those". Of course there were my core set, registered and some with my name engraved on the side, or so heavily customized and pictured on my website that there would be no denying that they were mine.

              Then there is having guns which are copies of your registered stuff. That gives you some options IF you cache them, and not just stick them in the safe next to everything else.

              Also, it does not take some massive "roundup" to screw with your right to own guns these days, even a misdemeanor DUI or stunt with fireworks or fight in the parking lot of a bar can put you on probation for a few years with a ban on you owning guns, and if you have guns during that probation, it is a felony. They will show up with a list of guns they know you bought in the last several years and tell you that if you don't account for them, you don't get out of jail. A lot of guys think they are ready for the "big one", or major SHTF, and then the "little one" broadsides them. We are not being taken down all at once, we are being taken down a few at a time, and almost always alone.
              Last edited by RT; August 15, 2009, 14:31.
              Life, Liberty and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

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              • #8
                Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

                I would still advise you get a CCW if it is possible for you to get a CCW. Nothing would suck more than getting busted for illegal CCW when the situation would have been avoidable. I only carried illegally when my legal applications were wrongfully disapproved, and I avoided convictions when I was caught by the fact that I was able to show that I was otherwise fully qualified and met the qualifications, including extensive training on lawful self defense, safety and range qualification testing. Thing is, a big part of my problems began when I sued the sheriff over refusal of my CCW. I probably would not have popped up on their radar so much if I had not applied in the first place.

                Also, when carrying legally, I would advise going with 100% legal guns, but have multiples that are very different from each other. One ploy used against CCW holders is false charges of "brandishing". Someone gets advance knowledge that you carry a particular make and model of gun, then call in a false complaint of brandishing to the cops, describe the gun, and then let nature take its course. You short circuit the program when the cops show up, check your weapon and it does not match the description that the false accuser gave them. You are really screwed if they show up, check your gun and the numbers come back as a "stolen gun" because the guy who sold it to you privately got "sellers remorse" and someone told him it would be a slick idea to report it stolen to avoid being prosecuted for something done by the person who bought it.

                Very few dealers will want to give you a copy of the 4473 when you buy a gun, but it can be easy and is legal for them to give you the background check approval number. That is a transaction number assigned by whichever agency does the background check on the purchase, and is a defacto registration.

                Nobody ever "confiscates all the guns at once" not even in the countries that came out with the worst gun bans. Not even the Gestapo did it that way in Germany or places the German Army had invaded. They waited, they did some intel, they hit some major stockpiles first, then when they consolidated control, they went to neighborhoods, and then if they thought a neighborhood did not comply, they went house to house but that was only after they had rolled up known leaders and stockpiles. The resistance for the most part re-armed from outside sources. Poles had some weapons caches that were not used up fighting off the dual invasions, and to some degree engaged in underground manufacturing, as did some of the Scandinavian resistors. Anti-communists and criminals in the Soviet states participated in a vast black market of stuff scavenged from battlefields, and a lot of that stuff even turns up in Russia today.

                In the US, it is incremental criminalization of gun ownership. Right now, you commit any crime at all while armed, it is pretty much going to be prosecuted as a "gun crime". Commit any breach of the various minutae of transfer, carry or possession laws, it is a "gun crime". Go on probation for any reason, you become a "prohibited person". Get convicted of a crime in a foreign country, even of laws which don't exist here, then you may become a "prohibited person". Move from one residence to another without registering with the government, especially between states, you are a "prohibited person". Smack your ex-fiance when you come home from work early and find her screwing the mailman - you become a "prohibited person". Get really irritated and stressed out over losing your job (the found out you were a "nutjob" who owned too many guns), and show signs of "agitation" in front of the wrong people, get hauled out for psych evaluation, and you become a "prohibited person".

                While I am not entirely against the concept of higher levels of public health care, I can easily imagine that the big socialist bill they have working its way through government right now has a number of "mental health" clauses which make it an "administrative decision" for someone to be declared a "prohibited person". Then there are the proposals for anyone on the DHS watchlist to be considered a "prohibited person" and instead of the Democrats dismantling the whole watchlist/hitlist system, they simply argue over who remains on it or gets added to it as soon as they take power.
                Last edited by RT; August 14, 2009, 14:33.
                Life, Liberty and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

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                • #9
                  Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

                  I think it's a good idea to keep track of which ones are untraceable back to you. I can imagine the circumstances where having a weapon that can't be tied to you would have alot of advantages.

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                  • #10
                    Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

                    Also consider the ways a gun might be traced to you.

                    There were several spots "out in the woods" where I used to shoot, and apparently someone had a couple of them under surveillance, probably hoping to catch me getting some trigger time in on my Krinkov or one of the Uzis or other subgun that would obviously be an NFA item.

                    I preferred Wolf ammo since the "brass" quickly degrades when left out in the weather, further camouflaging the shooting range. Thing is, someone had taken a shovel and been digging my bullets out of a backstop, and I am guessing they were running ballistic matches on them. In theory, they could run ballistic matches on your brass too. I have heard of this being done in a few investigations where an agent or informant at a shooting club picks up brass they know belongs to a certain gunowner's gun and then they either try to match it to a crime, or just keep it on reserve to see if it can be matched to a crime later.

                    Likewise, in the book Unintended Consequences, the feds get on to Bowman when they match bullets from his shooting range to bullets used to take a few of their people out, even though Bowman had not provided any ballistic matches willingly.
                    Last edited by RT; December 23, 2009, 03:08.
                    Life, Liberty and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

                      Its just sad that it has come to this. People struggling to eat, and the gov't using tax money to screw with people about their 2nd amendment rights. I could go on and on, but it would be like beating a dead horse.

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                      • #12
                        Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

                        Not much to add that hasn't already been stated.
                        If a person were handy with tooling, you might just snarf up some AK kits at gun shows, cash transactions ONLY.

                        With some decent sheetmetal and a a few "skills" a person can assemble an AK receiver, and ising the kits, rebuild the units on blank receivers.

                        It's not a hard thing to learnn, and the first few attempts usually aren't the prettiest. But, you'r elearning to do something resourceful, and providing yourself with some very valuable assets "if".

                        Yeah, also buy up the US made parts and insert in kit to be compliant, just in case you're visited one day.

                        The only thing which hinders people is their imagination.
                        Actually, that's not exactly true, many times it's their stupidity.
                        [CENTER][SIZE=1]“Corruptissima republica plurimae leges,”[/SIZE][/CENTER]
                        [CENTER][SIZE=1]“The more corrupt the republic, the more numerous the laws.”[/SIZE][/CENTER]

                        [CENTER][SIZE=1]Publius Cornelius Tacitus[/SIZE][/CENTER]
                        [CENTER][SIZE=1][/SIZE] [/CENTER]
                        [CENTER][SIZE=1]Sic Semper Tyrannis[/SIZE][/CENTER]

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                        • #13
                          Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

                          Originally posted by guncrazy View Post
                          Its just sad that it has come to this. People struggling to eat, and the gov't using tax money to screw with people about their 2nd amendment rights. I could go on and on, but it would be like beating a dead horse.
                          The new game I am seeing is the growth of the class of "legal scavenger", basically, a parasitic informant class like they had in the old Soviet Union. These are scavenger types with various licenses from the government and a mandate to use the law to shake down whoever they can, these "snitch gangs" are already pervasive in the federal prison system. They come to shake you down and you either pay up or get in trouble.

                          That's the real widespread issue of poverty. In fat and happy times, nobody is going to go turning in their neighbor for $1000 when everyone is making $5K per month, although the government will spend lots of tax money to go after whoever they want, they tend to go for "trophy kills" in that environment. In a legal scavenger economy, people are turning people in all of the time for privilege and little scraps from the master's tables. That is especially true with those who don't have the guile to be true outlaws or the boldness to be true patriots for any cause except the one that feeds them the most.

                          There are basically two ways to beat the registration system.

                          1 Don't ever buy a gun with a paper trail, and you even have to watch out for "sneaky registration" like when you are privately buying a gun and call in to see whether or not it is stolen. Compartmentalize and sanitize your ammo and gear buying any number of ways, going outside your home jurisdiction, using a fake name for dealing with your gun and gear crowd.

                          2. Go so high profile, buying three to five guns a month and getting into a circle of shooters who are constantly trading guns, but of course lots of guns regularly drop out of that circle of people and just get sold, but what happens is the guns eventually become very difficult to trace. Expect to be investigated, expect to have some back and forth harassment, and have a jolly time harassing the opposition right back. The government had me on the books with something like 80 guns bought on 4473s between 2001 and 2005. I think they expected to find under 20 at the house because they thought I was just buying and selling them, but I generally bought stuff on a 4473 that I planned on keeping. They admitted several times in court that they really had no idea how many guns I bought and sold privately, but of course every prick who got anywhere near my case was trying to attribute deals to me that I was not present for. One thing I was a major stickler on was I never touched stolen guns. The pigs on the other hand, really seem to like hot guns. The vast majority of my personal collection were all legit guns bought on 4473s or I built them myself. No way someone would scam some predated theft reports onto the stuff like I read about has been happening in Ohio.

                          3. Have a couple of designated gun buyers in your family or close circle of friends, or if you are really fortunate, in your community. We used to have an old guy, a former car dealer who had been taxed half to death all his life and then the government went after again in his retirement over something. He was too old to fight anything, but he decided he could make one contribution (well several hundred actually) which was to put as many guns as he could into circulation among as many good people as he could before he died, that it would effectively be his legacy of freedom for future generations. He did not make a killing on the stuff, but he turned a healthy profit, although it was not above him to try and make a killing on some deals. He often bought high and sold even higher. An odd strategy was that he would say that he had a special arrangement as an informant to turn in the really bad people who came to him for guns. That tended to scare away the bad element, and I happily took his money and sometimes bought from him while feeding him only selectively managed info about anything I was up to. I grew to like the old guy and stopped at his place after most gun shows to dump the stuff on him that I was not going to consider "keepers" or the really cool stuff for my types of buyers, and he ended up introducing me to a chick I was getting some action with for a while. He liked the cowboy stuff, and mentioned that his dream gun was the Brass framed .44 magnum Henry commemorative that had been out a year or so before. I managed to find one at a show for a reasonable price, private purchase just he way the old guy liked it and took it to his place right afterwards. I paid $450 for it, he paid me $650 for it and slapped a $1000 price tag on it right there. A day or two later I heard that he had died, and his caretaker found him with what she described was a "peaceful happy look" with that Henry laying accross his lap in his den. A few months after that, I was busted by the ATF and had asked the agent how he found out about a few things since I had been feeding the old Chinese guy selected misinformation for a long time, and the agent told me that they had been after him (Bill Ping) for nearly ten years and would have finally gotten him if he had not died on them. Those bastards planned on busting him and having him die in prison, but he had beaten them to it. As it was, the guy was apparently pretty darn solid, and while eccentric as hell, was not snitching on anyone. The feds were regularly visiting him with undercover people and he was regularly telling them to get screwed. Something he had been proud of was that he was regularly selling guns to "prohibited persons" and not once had one been traced to a violent crime, even though he was the type of guy to go buy a half dozen hi-points when they were on sale and then start advertising them in the classifieds. Thing is, you buy from a guy like that, a straight up outlaw dealer, as opposed to a fake outlaw dealer, he is not likely to be going and predating a false theft report to cover what he actually sold you. I have heard that "strategy" from others around here and it makes me sick. They want to sell the stuff at top dollar and then report it "stolen" in order to cover for themselves. Those are the people you want to avoid at all costs. Thing was, back from about 1998 to 2005, if you have a private purchase gun with an original store receipt showing that it was sold to Bill Ping, and then a secondary receipt to "John Smith" scrawled by hand with a real date, it was as good as gold. The shop I ran from time to time in town had a real problem with some guns changing hands a few times between people and then it would go on shop inventory, and on the next background check someone would find out it was stolen. You avoid that problem by using or assigning a designated buyer, and preferably someone who is old enough that you are providing some level of comfortable profit to them and when they pass, they are smart enough to have someone show up and destroy any records they may have kept.
                          Last edited by RT; December 23, 2009, 03:54.
                          Life, Liberty and the pursuit of those who threaten them.

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                          • #14
                            Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

                            Originally posted by RT View Post
                            Thing is, you buy from a guy like that, a straight up outlaw dealer, as opposed to a fake outlaw dealer, he is not likely to be going and predating a false theft report to cover what he actually sold you. I have heard that "strategy" from others around here and it makes me sick. They want to sell the stuff at top dollar and then report it "stolen" in order to cover for themselves.
                            Overhere, it's working different, i will not write how, but you'll get whatever you want.............. whatever does mean whatever.............

                            That's even enough info.
                            Last edited by APIT; December 27, 2009, 09:03.

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                            • #15
                              Re: purchasing weapons without paper trails

                              There are many different ways to obtain firearms without official paperwork.

                              Private face to face sales would be the most common legal method.

                              Stolen firearms would probably be the most common illegal method. This would include guns that an individual stole and kept for himself as well as stolen guns that were later resold in a "black market". Most stolen weapons here were stolen from private owners, I would assume that in countries with much more restrictive fireaems laws that a higher percentage of stolen firearms came from police or military sources.

                              Illegally imported firearms is less common in this country than others, but there are guns that make their way into the states from forign countries. The large shipment of Chinese AK47s (not MAK 90s)that were intercepted in California during the Clinton administration comes to mind. In countries with borders close to former Soviet client states I would assume that source is much more prevelant. If firearm sales are curtailed here in the future smuggled guns are sure to become more common.

                              Illegally manufactured firearms aren't as big of a source as they once were, but the ones that are around are alot more sophisticated. Crude zip guns are pretty rare, but home built kit guns, illegal conversions of semiautos, and guns built from plans found on the internet are increasingly more common. If you include guns that were modified to a configuration that violates 922r it's a huge number. Of course, many of the conversions started life as fully compliant and legal guns, so they can't really be called guns without papers. The primitive workshops of third world nations like Vietnam and Afghanistan, and the bomb shelter factories of WWII are crude compared to the home workshops that an enthusiest of even modest means can buy. With a grinder, drill press, weldor, and lathe, virtually any type of firearm can be built from scratch with only mediocre machinist skills.

                              Relics are another catagory. Many firearms are passed down generation to generation with no paper trail. This includes guns that were brought back from variouse wars. I can only imagine the sorts of good stuff that might still be cached by the children of partisans or battlefield scavengers from WWII or other more recent conflicts.

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