How to defeat an APC

[RT]

Re: How to defeat an APC

Generally speaking, the unit with the APCs is going to set up shop at an established fortified area and then use their armor for forays outside of their area. When they are smart about it, they position the support elements far enough away from your area that you have to contend with their defenses if you make a move to strike the support area.

A lot of the maintenance can be short circuited or delayed under assault conditions, so if they have not had contact with the enemy (you) for some time, assume they are hauling a fighting load and at worst, might be modestly low on fuel. They could care less about whether or not the recommended transmission fluid change interval is this week or someone has hit the zerk fittings in the tracks. They just want ammo and fuel, and they probably have both.

Now lets go outside the box:

Jam the commo - this can be done with relatively low risk to your people. Commo is easier to jam than to eavesdrop on. You find out what frequency ranges they use, then transmit garbage on them. Frequency hopping rigs will often lose their timing when they run into a jammed frequency and may or may not be able to synch with each other after that. Granted, newer stuff maybe can overcome that.

Make them button up - small arms fire is obvious, but might also draw fire. Now think slings and catapults slinging trash and feces. Or hijack a sanitation truck, the type used to pump out the porta johns, and make a crap cannon out of it with a firetruck pump system (well, you could just hijack a firetruck and fill the water tanks with sewage). Pretty quiet, and likely to take that armor out of action if the crew has any say in the matter.

Communicate with the crew and corrupt/bribe them. Booze, dope, women, cash, gold, whatever gets their sweet tooth. This worked for several Kuwaiti groups during the first Gulf War. They simply explained to Iraqi tank crews that an anti tank weapon cost them $1000 to be purchased and smuggled in, and they only had a few, but the crew had a choice: take the money or come under fire. Option #2, go take a break at a local cafe while the tank goes under fire, but with an agreement to not resist, the anti-tank outfit could engage from a closer distance with more safety, and give a good cover story for the crew having lost their tank in "combat".

[Blazer76]

Re: How to defeat an APC

dont most if not all APC's need optics to fire there main weapon?

any 50 cal should be able to take out the optics of the main gun,
how many travel in groups? is it a scout detachment of only two vehicles, or is it 5 with gunship support?

if it wass me I would scout for a small detachment 1 or 2 APC's

and if one APC group see's the lead vehicle fliped by ordanance barried in the road and there main gun is taken out they may give up?

[Rodnryl]

Re: How to defeat an APC

You basically want to stop the lead vehicle so the lightly armed militias can tangle with whoever the bad guys will be. Since it is LA you will have some urban warfare scenarios. Why not have an enemy column moving down a street then from windows on both sides the two lead vehicles get their drivers view ports blocked by paint guns.

As a follow up to the blinding of the lead vehicles, which will in all probability crash, and effectively block their patrol route. Freindlys in upper floors then heave chlorine filled glass bottles/canning jars onto the stopped vehicles. Since it is LA swimming pool or public water treatment supplies should be abundant. By the time the hostiles realize what hit their vehicle was chlorine it wil be too late. The chlorine gas will cause the bad guys in the blinded vehicles to try a run for it. Then your kill teams in overwatch positions pick them off. The chlorine will have caused eye damage to the victims so they won't be able to effectively fire back.

Militias will not win against any conventional force in a stand up fight. They will be best in a war of attrition. 3 enemy killed here, 6 there, pretty soon they don't like southern California much.

Another thought, have some action from the Mexican Mafia gangs. They would be extremely ticked off if the UN wanted to take their guns and control their neighborhoods.

[Steve Marshall]

Re: How to defeat an APC

The best way I've found is to put it into the microwave and nuke it.

[Duncan M]

Re: How to defeat an APC

I need your help and would appreciate any information you can provide. I'm currently writing a novel and in it Militia members are up against BTR-80 APC's.

I'd like your input on how to defeat a BTR-80 without anti-tank rockets or missiles. The characters in the story will basically have what we would have in the field...at least during the first battles.

Also, currently militias from all over the US are begining to come together to meet the enemy. If you would like your group mentioned, let me know the following:

Unit nickname, if any
Unit specialty, if any
Any nom de guerres of individuals that would like to be mentioned

Thanks in advance for your help.

419!

Why don't you have the good guys use the bad guys against their own?

Comms, call in an enemy position that is their own and there is a FFI waiting to happen. (They do this even without any help, it comes due to the fog of war) I always say fight smarter not harder.

There are lots of books on the subject although having them I am sure would not look good in the eyes of the alphabet agencies assuming they become the target of citizens wrath. I always thought when it came down to it the bad guys would be the Russians, later it made more sense that China would be our undoing. As it turns out China owns America and the people running the country are communists with a socialist bent. Guess we the people allowed our own nation to fall by electing the worst sort of criminals to the halls of justice and government.

An APC needs fuel and support if one wanted to stop them without losing men and a direct firefight I would think along the lines of a screwdriver in the wrong place or a monkey wrench in the works. Some say that #3 has a hard time with simple chemicals found around the home, turning the internal engine into a bomb, but what would I know about that? Good thing we the people don't know what is going on.

[partisan50]

Re: How to defeat an APC

Personally, I'd just have one of the guys be an NFA nut with a Lahti anti tank cannon (20x138b mm) with some old Nazi AP rounds. They'll slice through most APC's and light armor with no problems. It won't do much against a tank or other harder armor though. Plus, the Lahti's are out there though the ammo is scarce and you can play up the fact that the 130 pound gun isn't easy to move or carry.

Mike

Just think of the Finns during the Winter War and the Continuation war...those 20mm slugs will rivet the turrets, break the tracks, and go through the lighter armor. I have heard of solid bronze projos fired from a Lahti going through APCs with ease. If you have one of these toys you need to experiment on reloading and penetration for future use.

[RT]

Re: How to defeat an APC

I am thinking tungsten core welding rod tips cut and loaded into sabots then fed through fairly conventional .308 and .50 cal. Maybe even do some experimenting with other calibers. Perhaps you could fashion them into little darts.

Any APC is basically going to be a lot like a piece of heavy construction equipment. A lot of iron and bulk which takes horsepower to break.

Some other options:

Flame weapons, fougas, flamethrowers and flaming barricades. Don't underestimate the utility of flaming barricades. They play hell with night vision and thermal equipment. Get them into the city or canyons and dump flaming stuff on them.

Figure out how to make five gallon jug Molotov go flying toward the opposition. I am thinking maybe some giant oversize rubber band catapult? Maybe encase it in something and fire it with a big compressed air system?

[ISC]

Re: How to defeat an APC

I've often wondered if a potato gun could be used as the motive force to profect a molotov cocktail. I think we've seen how effective EFPs are against armor. They can be aimed from a effective stand of distance and are responsible for more casualties than any other type of IED that we are encountering. They do require explosives, which the enemy has in quantity from disassembles arty shells as well as the copper discs that Iran is supplying.

If US miolitia was faced with conducting an insurgency against an oppressor/invader those two items wouldn't be available.

[TreverSlyFox]

Re: How to defeat an APC

If US militia was faced with conducting an insurgency against an oppressor/invader those two items wouldn't be available.

The copper disks could be easily made on a 12 ton shop press. The explosive can be made from the old Military Hexamine MRE heating tabs or the Esbit stove tabs or if you have the stupids just make Acetone Peroxide.

[ZombieHunter]

Re: How to defeat an APC

Again, the overlooked (and inherent) benefits of the Molotov cocktail vs. armor...

A) The armor, while protecting it from small arms fire, is a detriment when it comes to seeing things that are right next to it. If your hatch or gun port is closed, you can't see through it. If it's open, it's not protecting you.

B) A Molotov's main threat to armor is not penetrating the armor and getting inside, but rather, asphyxiating and/or burning the crew from the outside. The one thing every man requires for immediate survival is oxygen. While gasoline alone will not "stick" well to sloped surfaces while burning, the usage of thickening agents such as powdered laundry detergents will create a "jelly" when mixed properly. Adding powdered sulfur (for instance, Sevindust, or two large boxes worth of match heads) will create an even more lethal brew of fumes.

C) When the temperature rises, or the air inlets are filling with gasses other than oxygen, there will be less oxygen available to the APC's crew...and they will un-ass the APC quick fast in a hurry. From there, people other than the thrower of said cocktail can pop out from hiding and start playing long range whack-a-commie.

[Illini Sniper]

Re: How to defeat an APC

Location. Location. Location.

The Afghans used to ambush Russian convoys on mountain roads. On one side of the road is a very steep drop off. On the other side is a steep uphill grade. The Afghans would take out the lead vehicle and the last vehicle in the convoy. Next snipers or designated marksmen would cause the armored vehicle crews to button up. Next Afghan men would slide down the incline to get next to the armored vehicles. Logs would be piled below and on top of the armored vehicles. The logs would be set ablaze with the crews still inside of the armored vehicles. When the crews would try to break out of the vehicles to avoid being cooked to death, the Afghans would kill them as they came out. You take out the armored vehicles from the rear to the front, one at a time. It worked well for them.

Now, imagine catching a Russian armored vehicle in an alley in an American city. We could do exactly the same thing.

[partisan50]

Re: How to defeat an APC

Location. Location. Location.

The Afghans used to ambush Russian convoys on mountain roads. On one side of the road is a very steep drop off. On the other side is a steep uphill grade. The Afghans would take out the lead vehicle and the last vehicle in the convoy. Next snipers or designated marksmen would cause the armored vehicle crews to button up. Next Afghan men would slide down the incline to get next to the armored vehicles. Logs would be piled below and on top of the armored vehicles. The logs would be set ablaze with the crews still inside of the armored vehicles. When the crews would try to break out of the vehicles to avoid being cooked to death, the Afghans would kill them as they came out. You take out the armored vehicles from the rear to the front, one at a time. It worked well for them.

Now, imagine catching a Russian armored vehicle in an alley in an American city. We could do exactly the same thing.

The Finns would do similar ops against the Russians tanks during the Winter War, especially when they were going through a town. Out in the field, a daring Finn would run up to a tank with a strong tree limb and jam it into the tracks. When the crew came out to repair they would be picked off or MG'ed.

[RT]

Re: How to defeat an APC

I am not likely to tangle with ten million dollar tanks on behalf of a combatant party at is unwilling to provide me with the availability of suitable ATGMs in the $3000-$10000 range.

If the bounty for wrecking an enemy tank is below $25,000 then those who want the tanks destroyed are not taking the war seriously and I am better off going to the next safe haven area instead.

[Anthony]

Re: How to defeat an APC

The Finns would do similar ops against the Russians tanks during the Winter War, especially when they were going through a town. Out in the field, a daring Finn would run up to a tank with a strong tree limb and jam it into the tracks. When the crew came out to repair they would be picked off or MG'ed.

I have a movie entitled "Talvisota" (Winter War) in which a Finn soldier actually does this.

He jams a log just behind the front roller and it jams the track.

[Anthony]

Re: How to defeat an APC

During the Hungarian uprising they dropped powerlines on Soviet tanks.

Wait until the apc is driving along a road, then toss a steel cable over a powerline just before the apc hits it.

Don't try to defend against apc's (l'audace - audace - tojour l'audace!).