How to defeat an APC

[Alma the Younger]

I need your help and would appreciate any information you can provide. I'm currently writing a novel and in it Militia members are up against BTR-80 APC's.

I'd like your input on how to defeat a BTR-80 without anti-tank rockets or missiles. The characters in the story will basically have what we would have in the field...at least during the first battles.

Also, currently militias from all over the US are begining to come together to meet the enemy. If you would like your group mentioned, let me know the following:

Unit nickname, if any
Unit specialty, if any
Any nom de guerres of individuals that would like to be mentioned

Thanks in advance for your help.

419!

[TP]

I believe the standard BTR-80 is only protected from .50BMG & similar rounds from the front. The sides and rear are proof against the smaller military rounds, but that's about it.

If you wanna be safe, your characters can use thermite. Easy enough to have them make from aluminum powder and iron oxide.

I believe there was an -A variant with beefed up armor, but I don't recall the specs.

[RT]

The Chechens seem to favor command detonated landmines. There is a now famous short video of the Chechens triggering the landmine on the Russian APC while the tape is rolling. The Russians are all riding on top of the APC to get extra protection from the mines they figure are around, but the Chechens had laid down an absolutely huge monster bomb under the road that blew the whole damn thing sky high. Chechens apparently favor video taping ambushes for Propaganda and training purposes.

Another thing would be a black powder cannon or mine, even a fairly simple one, firing a variation of spike flechettes at close range. this sort of mine is placed off on the side of a paved road where you can't effectively bury a mine. Our guys are learning about this tactic the hard way in Iraq, and if someone were to invade the US, they would likely be facing OIF veterans who learned enough about the IEDs to make and use their own.

A "wrecked" car on the side of the road that actually contains a car bomb.

If it is really Russian made equipment, just follow them around for a while outside the range of their main weapons, take potshots from time to time to keep them scared and "buttoned down" then wait for normal attrition from lack of maintenance to break down their vehicles. No joke, this tactic works in Africa all of the time. The Russian APCs are VERY cramped inside, nobody would want to stay buttoned down in one for very long. The 113 and Bradley are Limosines by comparison.

If we are really talking Russian made stuff, it will not last long without maintenance. Their vehicles are not reliable like AKs and damn sure not like our current stuff, they are more like my 1968 Dodge van, one week of downtime for every two days of running time, bad on gas, lousy handling, but of course EMP proof.

Even 1/2" of serious armor steel will stop most small arms fire. Real armor steel is a breed apart from normal mild steel you get at your steel supply. I use the scraps from a shop that makes backhoe buckets as material for some steel targets and that stuff will stop .308 FMJs from 25 yards with barely a dent. I would not put any faith in a firearm of any sort to take on a vehicle that is actually covered with the stuff, even if it were "only" 1/2 inch of armor. I also don't think there is any hand-thrown bomb that would really give you a catastrophic kill on one of those things either.

[mgjohn]

Fugauzi's (SP) work well. Take a 55 gal drum and bury it in a hill with the opening facing the target area. It should be at a lower level than the target and angle up. Put your explosives in the bottom and then fill with fuel. Acts like a giant claymore with burning fuel instead of ball bearings.

[optactical]

Think battlefield recovery, the Afghans used RR's and RPG's they got from dismounted units against the Soviets.

Planning an ambush with big IED's is great, but logistically it can be a nightmare, especially if you have to do it in every direction they can hit you from, plus prepare for more than 1 vehicle. Always have two systems, if not four.

I'd love to see a copy of your book when it comes out, have a good new year.

BTW my unit is Megaforce , we accomplish the unthinkable on a shoestring budget. My nom de guerre is Budak (boo-dak) , my buddies are: Istilah takbaik (istih-lah tak bike) , Orang Bodoh (Oh-rang Boh-doh) , and Babi Hutan (bobby hootang) [img]tongue.gif[/img] . Or in English: slave, cusser, dumb ass, and wild boar.

[BWFS's offspring]

I hope, this is what you are looking for.
I do know you said no rockets, but we had them so we used them.



Infantry carried scored the most hits.



Although mounted ones did the job as well, as the unmounted ones did, usually firing from behind a hill top-line or some high cover.



Recoil-less cannons, worked wonders on just about anything, just as long as you hit it. Considering that spotting rounds, would let them know they were targeted.



Necessity is the mother of invention...
#1 Get a car,
#2 Fill it with cooking gaz container
#3 Roll car towards BTR (preferably on a downward hill)
#4 Make sure you have enough fire power to cover the blast area, or anyone trying to run, Also make sure that you do not need the nearby buildings.



Last but not least, make sure you have supperior fire power, the BTR family of vehicles always had firing ports, and in mid summer days they were usually wide open, so we made the most of it
Usually once you hit the driver area with a couple of rockets the vehicle was made imobile then it was only a question of time until they started to pour out, that's if they were not motivated to with another RPG shot.

[FreightTrain]

The Chechynans (sp?) videotaped their attacks for financial purposes.

I saw a very good episode of Frontline in which photojournalists followed the Chechyans (again spelling). They said that they were being paid for each attack on the Russian troops and paid for every Russian soldier they killed.

The people doing the paying couldn't believe the number of attacks and dead Russians that the Chechnyans were claiming so they started to film them for proof of the attacks and proof of the number of dead.

[Odd-Ball]

If APC is rubber tired.... a larger version would be better. At least you'll slow then down.



My $.02

[ 01. January 2004, 15:01: Message edited by: Odd-Ball ]

[telsonman]

the undercarriage is very soft. most landmines or explosions underneath will disable it. sometimes 7.62natoAP rounds will penetrate if hit right. .50 will go through it like a humvee. the bradleys are better, to an extent.

[gdog]

It won't work with wheeled APC's, but to disable a tracked vehicle disable the tracks. If you can get close enough to it, put some timbers (like a short section of utility pole) into the tracks on either side of a road wheel. You will need to get some on both sides so they can't spin on axis. Once the veh is unable to move, throw some flammable material on it and when it gets hot enough, hatches should start openting.

[RT]

Nt sure how many of you have actually dealt with armored vehicles, but a lot of that stuff is easier said than done. FYI nearly all wheeled APCs can operate for a long time with flat tires. All that flattening the tires will do is mess up high speed handling and reduce their fuel economy. Replacement tires are a lot cheaper than tracks which require periodic tuneing and replacement whether or not they are in combat. That means your average reasonably well prepared military force has a lot of spare tires around in bulk cargo. It takes a lot of ordnance to destroy that bulk cargo, all the while it does little to affect enemy fighting forces at the moment. That is the tao of conventional warfare against a conventional enemy that is fighting "heavy".

The way a force of wheeled APCs is supposed to work is that they can move from their secured area into a target objective area on the existing roads very quickly. They don't approach "cross country" like tracked stuff, but then look at most cities, you have roads all over going in and out. They just want to get from their rallying point to their objective fast and easy, but once on the objective, if they get fired up a bit and tires flattened, they can still maneuver and fight on the objective (your back yard). If anything, flattening their tires motivates them to stick around for a while instead of retreat back to their secured area once they feel they have done enough damage. What they are trying to establish is being able to move their bulk cargo around without having to put forces on protecting it. They would rather use those forces to be hunting you.

BWFSs Offspring obviously knows a bit about this, and the game is to obtain anti-tank and anti-armor weapons when you can. That means you can use your own highly mobile forces to be less predictable in determining the time and place you engage the enemy, as opposed to them being reasonably able to figure out what places they left unguarded long enough for you to be setting up landmines and IEDs.

In all honesty, if the conflict drags out for any period of time and you have some access to either a clandestine market or corrupt elements of the enemy forces, you will likely be able to obtain some AT weapons of some sort.

No joke, a good story would have to contain some elements of what it takes to corrupt elements of the enemy forces. Drugs, alcohol, sex, money, heck, even appeals to their morality. Whatever it takes to get someone in the opposition to look the other way when someone unloads a truck in the middle of the night.

These methods have worked more than anyone wants to admit and were one of the main strategies used by Jewish resistance groups to obtain weapons during WW2. I understand the Kuwaitis used these methods against the Iraquis. No Joke, one method of "taking out" an Iraqui tank was to just pay the crew to walk away with enough cash and maybe some hashish to get stoned enough not to care about someone vandalizing the tank. Other deals included simply trading the tank for a small pickup or car loaded with loot.

Anyway, those elements are what I am putting into my story about the blue helmets being called in to act as peacekeeping forces in LA when it gets declared a "world sovereign city", emancipated from the US and declared as a UN administration zone. In the story, not only are the patriot groups divided, but so are the "invaders" and the "locals". I think it would go down that way, just like what happened in Lebanon in the 1980s.

[ 04. January 2004, 03:35: Message edited by: RT ]

[bulletcatchR]

Even recently Izzy troops have been caught dealing to the PLO.

BulletcatchR

[Alma the Younger]

Thanks to everyone who contributed. I got some outstanding ideas and they will definately make things easier.

419!

[mussi]

If you're very brave, you'll do like the Russians are taught - dig a foxhole, grab a mine and wait until a tank or APC drives over your hole and then stick the mine under the tank. Evev MBTs quite often quit after getting the load from an AT mine. An APC will probably do some acrobatic stunt and the crew will be medium or done, like the proverbial steak.

.338 Lapua or a rocket launcher against parts protected with plain (ie non-reactive) armor will also do the work that has to be done.

[vlad055]

For russian wheeled apc's, you can use a larger caliber round(i.e. 308,303,7.62x54,50cal.ect.) . aim for the front wheel well drivers side behind the the wheel. much softer metal and it will either hit and kill the driver or wound him. Or i guess everyone seems to discount the old PLATTER charge. easy to make and very very effective. using tnt alone you can get 14,000fps for the steel or brass top plate to puncture hardened steel armor. and its directional.