Reloading setup

[CMV]

If I wanted to get into reloading, does someone make a "this is everything you need" type of kit? Meaning just tooling - I wouldn't expect it to include brass, bullets, primers, & powder.

Do I need separate stuff for rifle & pistol cartridges? I'd primarily do 5.56mm but might want to do some handgun rounds too. Do I need to take that into consideration or will a setup that does rifle rounds also do handgun rounds? Every caliber needs its own dies but are there other things I'd need too?

Reloading is something I don't know enough about to know what brands of stuff to look for or avoid or what kind of setup is best for inexperienced people.

How many times can you reload a brass case? Is there a set number of times you generally want to fire it & then discard it or can you keep reusing brass until it's "worn out" (if so, how do you know its "worn out")? Or is there a certain number of times after which it is so much work to get the casing back to the right dimensions it isn't worth messing with? If there is a set number of times, how do you keep track of how many times you've fired a specific casing?

Lastly, is it really worth it? Bullets, powder, & primers don't seem all that expensive. Brass is. Looks like buying all the components & new brass would cost more than just buying commercial ammo. If you can use the brass several times that makes it not so bad. Plus the first set of brass is "free" because I'll save what i would have otherwise discarded or given away. But if it takes 5 min to produce 1 round it wouldn't be worth it to me even if the overall cost ended up being 1/2 of buying commercial ammo.

I'd just be making plinking ammo - not going for hunting, match, or CCW ammo.

[RT]

Re: Reloading setup

Yeah, I think Dillon puts together promotional package deals for that. You can pretty much do one stop shopping through the Dillon website or catalog, and if you call in and tell them what you are specifically trying to accomplish, one of their people would walk you through a shopping list and probably put some sort of all inclusive deal together for you.

I did that with them on two presses since I did not want to go having to change everything over (going from 9mm/223 to .308/45 means changing over more than just the head unit). I got one of the presses used so I ended up with three total and another several hundred worth of the other stuff (case vibrator/tumbler, primer pocket reamer ect ect). Even some thing that was for changing military primer pockets over to a civillian type. I loaded maybe 2000 rounds of various calibers total then passed the equipment on to a guy in my group who was going to be handling all of the reloading. He ended up switching to the top of the line Dillon press (1050) and my 550s were not getting used much so I got them back and eventually never put that stuff into use much either, and designated another guy as the reloader when I moved to Oregon. Then one day he gave me a check for $600, since he wanted to be "honest about holding my equipment". I said it was basically loaned equipment not to be sold but if he felt more comfortable with me holding the money then fine. Later I found out he sold most of it and again, upgraded to the 1050. I then passed some tracer bullets to him to make into tracer ammo for me. He thought there would be a legal liability and came up with excuses not to do it.

All told, my foray into reloading was a waste of time back when ammo in all of the calibers that I used regularly was averaging $100 per case, either Wolf of NATO surplus. I was much much more profitable and better off picking up a half dozen or so cases at every gun show outside the area, getting them home, and selling some for a modest markup (never more than 20%). My markup was a bit smaller than the total someone local would pay including shipping, and if course I did it legally for cash without collecting their personal information. It eventually reached the point where I had around 80,000 rounds at the house and was wholesaling to local gun shops. The $1500 or so that I had originally spent on reloading equipment would have gotten me that much more ahead that much sooner had I just went the bulk ammo route earlier.

The issue now from what I can tell though is ammo is much more costly across the board while reloading equipment is not much more expensive than ten years ago, not to mention lots of used equipment around. It might now be worth your money to get into it.

The other factor you need to figure on is the storage and bench space. Having reloading equipment in the garage is common, but it also advertises there are guns in the house, probably lots of guns. Don't forget that while that deters one kind of criminal, it attracts others. Cases of ammo are much easier to store, transport, hide, and trade with if SHTF.

[kARL]

Re: Reloading setup

http://leeprecision.com/xcart/Single-Stage/

Lee kits will get you started.

You will need the dies add about $30.

As you advance you can and will add more tools.

As to brass I just used to buy mine from the range master or at the gun shop. The price has gone up a lot but you can save your 5.56 brass (IF it is boxer primed..an American brand almost always is) and reload that.
It has been a while since I did a cost analysis but back around 2000 it about 1/3 the price of new ammo...of course, I shot a lot back then and after a few months recouped the cost of the gear and showed a lot of savings.

The nice part was that you could build a load to suit the rifle and get MOA groups firing from sand bags at 250 meters. : )

karl

[C. M. Wolf]

Re: Reloading setup

Hello CMV, I recommend following what Karl points out. Dillon does make some truely excellent equipment, but for the price, I use Lee for it's caliber interchangabilities. Both Dillon and Lee customer service are excellent to deal with.

Keep an eye on MidwayUSA for reloading components,(except powders and primers, the haz-mat shipping will kill ya), powders and primers are generally best located in your local area and picked up in person.

IHTH

Michael

[C. M. Wolf]

Re: Reloading setup

...

Reloading is something I don't know enough about to know what brands of stuff to look for or avoid or what kind of setup is best for inexperienced people.

I would recommend finding a good and knowledgeable mentor when it comes to reloading many calibers and for various firearms. It can be rather indepth and quite detailed to do correctly and safely.

How many times can you reload a brass case? Is there a set number of times you generally want to fire it & then discard it or can you keep reusing brass until it's "worn out" (if so, how do you know its "worn out")? Or is there a certain number of times after which it is so much work to get the casing back to the right dimensions it isn't worth messing with? If there is a set number of times, how do you keep track of how many times you've fired a specific casing?

This depends on many factors, type and make/quality of brass, type/quality of firearm reloaded for, how often each case is annealed and trued, how hot the rounds are loaded per caliber... etc, etc. Some brass/calibers can be reloaded as many as 25 times before it can no longer be trued,(or is 'worn out').... depending...

Lastly, is it really worth it? Bullets, powder, & primers don't seem all that expensive. Brass is. Looks like buying all the components & new brass would cost more than just buying commercial ammo. If you can use the brass several times that makes it not so bad. Plus the first set of brass is "free" because I'll save what i would have otherwise discarded or given away. But if it takes 5 min to produce 1 round it wouldn't be worth it to me even if the overall cost ended up being 1/2 of buying commercial ammo.

I'd just be making plinking ammo - not going for hunting, match, or CCW ammo.

I personally think it's very worth it and cost effective,(and more accurate), but I also reload for all the things that you may omitt reloading for.

IHTH

Michael

[Papadoc]

Re: Reloading setup

First I second the Lee kit's, they are top notch and won't break the bank. This is especially true for someone new to reloading. You won't be out as much if you decide that it is not your cup of tea.

As for 'is it worth it', well that depends on you. If you are just wanting to reload your own 'blasting ammo', then no it is not worth it on the cost/efficiency department. On the other hand, if you are looking to reload for accuracy, then it is the way to go.

Hope this helps some.

[paintballmagnet]

Re: Reloading setup

I have a Dillon that works fine for .223 or .308 provided I use ball powder and am going for numbers, not precision accuracy. When I'm serious about accuracy loads, I still use my Rockchucker and weigh every powder charge one at a time. This is the only way I've found to maintain sub M.O.A. with my rifles.

[jefferson101]

Re: Reloading setup

Everything you need is a single stage press and a die set for the caliber(s) that you want to reload, and a scale for the powder. A tumbler is kind of optional, but unless you like greenish brass, it's recommended.

I have been saying that I'll go to a progressive press someday, but I don't think that someday is ever going to get here. I can shove 250 or so pieces of brass through the decapping and resizing die in an hour or so, and can load 75 rounds or more per hour.



Reloading is therapy for me. It's what I do when I'm bored, and want something to do. Once I get ahead of the game on resized and deprimed clean brass, it's all downhill, and I can cycle a whole bunch of brass through the press on a slow day. (Pistol ammo, be it noted. I don't get nearly that kind of production with rifle ammo, but I don't need nearly as much of it, either.)

Note that if I was burning up 2 or 3k/month of pistol ammo, I'd go with a progressive, but so far I've never had any issues keeping my reserve stock well above my minimums, and it's reasonably cheap to get started into at that level. I've got maybe $250 in my whole reloading setup, not counting the dies. Those are a whole different animal, and I've got about 20 sets of those. But if you want to be able to load what you shoot, it's part of the program, and it took me about 12 years to get all of those piled up, so it wasn't a big expenditure at any one time.

You can get cranked up for under $200, plus expendables (Bullets, Powder, Brass, and Primers.)

If you like doing it, you can either keep going or expand. If you don't? You can always resell the stuff you got. There is a market for it.

Point being, that you can get everything you need and load a thousand rounds of pistol ammo for around $400, give or take. You can spend more on bullets, but for range ammo, why pay that much for fancy bullets?



And be it noted. If they outlaw sales of ammo tomorrow, I'll be going strong for several years.



Go for it!

[CMV]

Re: Reloading setup

Thanks for the replies so far.

I found a local guy who has once fired Lake City brass for $60/1,000. Picking that up today.

Checking Midway they have this & it doesn't seem expensive: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/347...-223-remington

But reading the reviews it sounds like many people (who left a review) prefer to add the new primers by hand instead of messing with the automated feeder. Sounds like you need a double disk kit to get the correct amount of powder also. Others seem to recommend the case collator as well.

While it has good reviews, it appears you also get "nickled & dimed" buying other things it needs but doesn't include. If that's the case, would it be more beneficial to just buy a press & then the other items separately instead of this kit?

In addition I'll need some other stuff. This is what I can think of but there's probably more.

Case trimmer
Digital caliper (I have a dial one but digital is probably quicker plus mine is a plastic one so I wouldn't trust it for anything important)
Powder scale
Something to chamfer & deburr necks if not part of the trimmer
Something to ream out primer crimps (if all my brass will initially need this plus a good portion of what i collect in the future, should I use something more than a simple hand tool?)

For consumables I'll need brass, powder, bullets, primers, & case lube.

What I'm unsure of is a tumbler. It sounds like it's optional. I've read reviews of things like this http://www.midwayusa.com/product/515804/lee-zip-trim where people have said they use scotchbrite as this thing spins the cases to clean them instead of tumbling. Sounds like a nice idea but what happens to the case lube that's inside the case? If you don't tumble a 2nd time, how do you remove that? Or is it ok to not worry about it?

I also wonder what happens to the brass after it's tumbled or otherwise cleaned/polished. Seems like many people prep the brass & then put it up for a long time until enough prepped brass is accumulated that they can then load up a large batch at once. I can see myself doing that too - I think it would be more efficient & I 'd have more consistent results doing the actual loading all at once rather than a little bit at a time. But I'm thinking back to my military days. You'd spend all kinds of time cleaning & shining your brass uniform insignia & it would almost instantly look like junk again because it oxidized so quickly. I'm not saying I want this pristine-looking brass & expect it to look all pretty after it's loaded & put up, but polished brass doesn't stay that way for long unless the composition of ammo brass is different enough that it it has some inherent corrosion protection. Open up a 10 y/o box of Lake City M193 or M855 & there are some dark spots & overall dullness, but it was never bright & shiny to begin with. I'd imagine something that was bright & shiny to begin with would be real nasty after just a year or two.

[Papadoc]

Re: Reloading setup

Personally I prefer to use a sonic cleaner rather than a tumbler. I use this one from Harbor Freight (http://www.harborfreight.com/25-lite...ner-95563.html) As for the cleaned and polished brass, I have never had a problem regardless of the cleaning method with brass not staying bright and shiny. Store your cleaned and prepped brass in a dry location and you should be fine. Keep in mind that rifle brass should also be lubed prior to reloading, especially if you plan on full case sizing rather than just neck sizing. (Full case sizing will allow you to use the ammunition in any rifle. Neck sizing is used by a lot of people who are reloading primarily for accuracy. This is only done on brass that has already been fired in the rifle that it will be reloaded for, as the case has 'fire formed' to the chamber of that weapon, therby neccessitating only a resizing of the neck to allow seating the bullet as close to the lands as possible).

[paintballmagnet]

Re: Reloading setup

Buy quality the first time, you won't have to buy again. Pot metal presses won't last forever, they'll warp or break and eventually head for the scrap pile. Not to step on toes, I've had too many issues with Lee stuff to want any more. To be honest, though, I guess LEE stuff is Ok for the casual loader, it'll do OK for a few years unless you load tens of thousands of rounds like me. Its also possible some of their presses and dies might be made different now, fixed the problems I've encountered.

[CMV]

Re: Reloading setup

How do you get the lube out after resizing? You clean a 2nd time or leave it there? You just put water in that sonic cleaner? How many cases does it do at a time?

I think I'd have to do the full length resizing. I'll be starting with 1,000 1x fired cases not from my rifles. After that, it will be hard to know if 100% of what I'm picking up came from mine as several us are usually shooting 223.

I think I'll go ahead & get started. Looks like I can get the basics for about the same or just a little more as a loaded case of good ammo. So if the end result is 1,000 rds for $450ish & then I get something back out of the gear I'd still be ahead if I don't like it.

I'd need roughly 3.5 lbs of powder for 1,000 rds of .223. Does that sound right? I'm a little confused about primers as well. I've read any small rifle primer is fine and also that only certain harder types are safe for semiautos to prevent slam fires. Also read that some are brands are easier/harder to seat than others. I'll most likely have to go to Gander Mountain for powder & primers at first until I find a local shop that's open when I'm off work so that might limit my selection. I've read that hazmat shipping ends up costing more than paying a premium price + tax. Might not be true but I read it on the internet so it must be

That also puts me in a position of doing it backwards - instead of figuring out the load I want & then buying the brands in the manual for it, I'd be backing into it based on the powder & primer I can get there & then choosing what I can do with that combination. Might not be a big deal because I'm assuming they stock the most popular stuff.

I want to make something as close to XM193 as I can. Now that I sold off my odd 5.56mm (thanks Tokarev) all I have is IMI M193 & XM193. They seem pretty much identical in performance to me so whatever I make I hope is also the same. Widener's has the Federal M193 bullets for $82/1000 & that seems like a good price compared to most other 55gr projectiles. But I don't see those projectiles on any of the online reloading manuals (haven't bought one yet). Looking at other data for 55 gr FMJBT getting to 3100+ velocity is close to or at max load & 55,000 psi is over max load. that doesn't sound like where I should be starting out - I should probably be at the other end of the range near the starting loads. It also appears that the difference between most starting & max loads is 10% or less. Not a lot of margin for error.

Or maybe I'm heading down the wrong path all together. I know I can hit a B-27 @ 300M consistently using iron sights with either type of M193 - not a great feat of marksmanship. That's not putting them all CM or in a 6" circle even, but in the silhouette. More often, I'm attacking jihadist soda cans at 35-50M. If starting loads would do the same thing - w/o adjusting the sights - that's all I'd need to do.

[kARL]

Re: Reloading setup

If you are buying several lbs of powder try http://www.grafs.com/catalog/category/categoryId/3500

It is true that you have the haz mat fee and shipping..but Gander MT avg about 28 - 33 bucks a lb ..graf and sons are, depending on what powder you need about $ 20 a lb.


karl

[CMV]

Re: Reloading setup

PBM - Since I moved in 2005 I don't shoot nearly as much as I used to. All we have are indoor ranges. One allows rifles, but it's so short I don't really see the point. I really doubt I'd be reloading > 700 rds of .223 per year - and that's assuming I can find all the brass. If I setup for multiple handgun cartridges as well that might be an additional 400 rds. And those numbers are pushing it.

Before we moved here, I had a place that was $2 per visit & maybe 10 min from my house. I was always the only one there (unless I brought someone else) & would go shoot 2-3 days a week of mixed calibers. It was no big deal to go thru 1,000 - 1,500 rounds a month not counting .22. CCI blazer 9mm was $89/1,000 & .223 was about $130/1,000. We all remember those days.... Anyway, for $200/month or less, I could shoot as much as I felt like and had at least 8 convenient places to do it.

I don't have the place to shoot as much as I'd like, ammo costs much more, & I make less money working longer hours now than I did a few years ago. But I'm looking for some land to use that's nearby and reloading might make me feel less guilty about the cost and get me back into shooting more frequently. I'd like to say I'll get back to shooting regularly, but the reality is once or twice a month is all I'll go. Anyway, the reloading gear won't get tons of use. I won't get back to counting my rounds in thousands per month.

[C. M. Wolf]

Re: Reloading setup

Thanks for the replies so far....

I would recommend simply getting a Lee Challenger Reloading kit to start with and pick up the various caliber dies as you need them.
This set comes with a balance scale that works just fine,(certain types digital scales can be a caution depending on temps/conditions they may be used in). Buying an additional "Trickle-Powder-Charger" is a plus for speed, but you don't have to have it to start with.

Case trimmer

I have picked up a Lyman Case Trimmer...
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/case-trimmers/accuTrimmer.php
...Some 20yrs ago that is only just now starting to need sharpening of the cutter-bits,(countless thousands of cases later).

Digital caliper (I have a dial one but digital is probably quicker plus mine is a plastic one so I wouldn't trust it for anything important)

I also picked a Lyman Dial Caliper,(way, way back when), that has never failed to read 100% every time I've used it, and I've used it for far more than just cases.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/128288/lyman-dial-caliper-6-stainless-steel

Powder scale

The one that comes with the Lee Challenger set is fine, or you can eventually buy an adjustable lever charger that puts out individual weighed amouts that are pretty close. I still back this up with a Trickle-Charger to make sure of uniformity in powder weights per round. (I am very picky when it comes to reloading, but I also reload my own Match Rounds too).

Something to chamfer & deburr necks if not part of the trimmer.

I started out simply using a sharp knife for deburring the inner case mouth after trimming and this worked fine for years, now I carefully use a carpenter's countersink bit in my dremel that works way faster.

For the outside case mouth after trimming, I started out simply using a very fine file and rotating the case on it until the 'trim-flashing' was gone and a slight bevel was left in it's place. I've since made a special reversed countersink bit that does this in my cordless drill motor for speed. (It takes quite a lot of practice and 'feel' to get that outside case mouth bevel just right in the very short time it's touched to the power drill).

Something to ream out primer crimps (if all my brass will initially need this plus a good portion of what i collect in the future, should I use something more than a simple hand tool?)

I use again, a Carpenter's Countersink Bit with a small taper bit in it that also uniforms the primer hole in the base of the case at the same time it trims the military primer crimp away. (See above pic) Since I also use this in my cordless drill/dremel, caution should be taken and close attention given to not over bevel this area. As far as Primer-pocket reamers go, I don't use them,(I absolutely hate a loose prime pocket because there is a high risk of "primer-blow-by" that eventually will burn a ring into your firearm's bolt faces). I simply use a dremel-wire brush in a reversible cordless drill motor,(the reversing of a wire brush makes it last longer by reversing the bend in the wire bristles that only going one way can cause... I also use a nylon type when the primer pockets are not that dirty. Nylon still removes surface metals, so use caution here too.
http://www.mytoolstore.com/dremel/brushes.html That comes in two diameters for small and large primer sizes. Again caution should be stressed here whenever using stainless tooling/anything on brass or softer metals ast they can remove surface metal of the cases faster than you may think.

What I'm unsure of is a tumbler. It sounds like it's optional. I've read reviews of things like this http://www.midwayusa.com/product/515804/lee-zip-trim where people have said they use scotchbrite as this thing spins the cases to clean them instead of tumbling. Sounds like a nice idea but what happens to the case lube that's inside the case? If you don't tumble a 2nd time, how do you remove that? Or is it ok to not worry about it?

I also wonder what happens to the brass after it's tumbled or otherwise cleaned/polished. Seems like many people prep the brass & then put it up for a long time until enough prepped brass is accumulated that they can then load up a large batch at once. I can see myself doing that too - I think it would be more efficient & I 'd have more consistent results doing the actual loading all at once rather than a little bit at a time. But I'm thinking back to my military days. You'd spend all kinds of time cleaning & shining your brass uniform insignia & it would almost instantly look like junk again because it oxidized so quickly. I'm not saying I want this pristine-looking brass & expect it to look all pretty after it's loaded & put up, but polished brass doesn't stay that way for long unless the composition of ammo brass is different enough that it it has some inherent corrosion protection. Open up a 10 y/o box of Lake City M193 or M855 & there are some dark spots & overall dullness, but it was never bright & shiny to begin with. I'd imagine something that was bright & shiny to begin with would be real nasty after just a year or two.

Any Tumbler generally works just fine for cleaning your brass. I now have two RCBS tumblers, one with walnut media for the really dirty cases and the other with corn-media for the bright/shiny polish that makes the cases look more like fine jewelry,(very pretty). I lube my cases after trimming & polishing so that after sizing and reloading, there's still a slight film on the case of the finish round that can be wiped off,(like waxing a car, a very slight lube film also keeps it from tarnishing as fast). I very much don’t recommend using any scotch-brite pads or fine steel-wools to clean the cases. These tend to remove too much material, too fast, and very un-uniformly. If there are heavy or deep tarnished areas,(large splotches or pits), on the surface of the brass cases, I select these out to a lower grade,(plinking ammo only), or remove them to be recycled for scrap brass, depending on the degree surface damage.

I always blow out my freshly polished cases with my air compressor. Not cleaning out your cases of polishing media 'residue' can send very small amounts of this residue,(a form or jeweler's rouge or polishing compound that is designed to remove metal), down the bbl of the firearm when it's fired and wear the bore all that much faster.
I've also noticed in all the years that I've been reloading, that small bits of walnut or corn media can get lodged in the primer hole and this needs to be cleaned out before reloading too.

I'm careful to simply not get the case lube inside the case when I lube them. Even then, a very slight bit of case lube at the very mouth will only help in the case-sizing and is smoothed out by the die's inner shaper anyway. I do also use an old bore brush in my cordless drill on the inside of the case neck to make sure this area is clean of any burnt powder residues, it also cleans out anything else you don't want there too. I like very clean "seats" on the bullet and primer of every case I reload.

For long-term round storage, I zip-loc bag,(or double zip-loc bag), my round lots and still store these in air-tight metal containers. hey, if I work so hard at getting my rounds clean, accurate, bright & shiny... I darned well want them to stay that way for quite some time.

IHTH

Michael