Bible Study

[LadyKest]

Seattle, I must concur with Jefferson 101 on this point as well.

You certainly are welcome to your opinion that Jesus is not God, in fact you are not alone in that belief. Anyone who doesn’t believe in the Bible or God would agree most heartily with you. However, the Bible is explicit in its teaching that Jesus is not only the Son of God but also is God. Some examples:

1. In John 20:28, when Jesus tells Thomas to put his finger in the wholes in His hands and side, Thomas responds “My Lord and my God”. Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for his reply but instead encouraged others to do the same. In fact, this becomes John’s purpose in writing the Gospel, that we may all be blessed by our faith by not having seen the wounds with our own eyes. (John 20:29).
2. Hebrews 1 says that Jesus is the “exact representation” or exact duplicate of the character of God. The author is saying that every single attribute God has is also comprised in our Lord Jesus. In verse 8 the author continues:
“But to the Son He (God) says:
‘Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
Here is an example of God calling His Son God. “Therefore God, Your God, has anointed…”
3. Titus 2:13 says. “looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ...”
4. 2 Peter 1:1, “Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ.” Here Simon Peter is rightfully calling Jesus both Savior and God.

Don’t take my word for it. Look these other passages up at www.biblegateway.com. BTW- a great resource. And lets talk more about it.
Romans 9:5
Isaiah 9:6
Isaiah 40:3
Matthew 3:3
Colossians 2:9
Ps 102:25

Enjoy!

"And Jonah stalked to his shaded seat and waited for God to come around to his way of thinking. And God is still waiting for a host of Jonahs in their comfortable houses to come around to His way of loving."

Quoted from J. Verkuyl, "The Biblical Foundation of the Worldwide
Mission Mandate," in Perspectives on the World Christian Movement, p. 44

[ February 13, 2006, 23:09: Message edited by: LadyKest ]

[RevJoel]

From one of the early councils of the Christian Fathers, in Chalcedon, 451 A.D

Definition of the Union of the Divine and Human Natures in the Person of Christ

Act V
Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance (homoousios) with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer (Theotokos); one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the Fathers has handed down to us.

[LadyKest]

Lycan,
Please don't leave.
We did seem to stray from the original questions (and apparently the original intent). But I just came on-board and jumped into the meelee. This should be a learning and fun experience for all of us.

Scripture is a VERY large field and we are all "amateurs" in it. That's what makes it so interesting. A Bible scholar could spend years in the seminary learning and memorizing Scripture and yet still learn something from someone who just read a passage for the first time.

I think it's important that none of us ever feel like we have mastered God's Word or for that matter feel like it's beyond our understanding. The truth is there is a lot that I will never understand but I keep trying.

"Oh, bother said Pooh as he chambered another round." (Source unknown to me. If you know please let me know so I can give full credit.)

[Kestryll]

I have two serious questions for you Lycan;

What were you looking for (what did you hope this would be)?

What manner would you see as efficent and comfortable for those not so well versed to learn?

These are not meant as specious questions but more of getting a feel for where you are and where you are looking to get to.

I will say this much however, whenever you have an open discussion involving Scripture and it's interpretation you will have clashing of views and opinions. That is simply the nature of man.
We try to keep it civil and relatively on point but the debate will always be there.

As for the 'novice/amateurs' coming 'up to par' you'd likely be very suprised to find out how limited my knowledge is. Quite likely I am more on the level you are at than with Buck or Rev.Joel.
Don't approach this as 'I am a novice', instead think 'I am here to learn, discuss and share my views'. Either start with the three questions I posted above and give your thoughts, remember therer is no right or wrong answer, or address a fundamental view put forward by Seattle's statement "JESUS IS NOT GOD".
Simple question, do you think Jesus is God? If so, why? If not, why? Don't look at it as 'I can't explain it with Scripture', just explain where your belief that He is or is not God comes from. Then we can look at learning what Scripture can help support your belief, or refute it and show a new path if that is the case.

Unfortunately 'simple' can be difficult and the point can be broad in this, not always but it can be at times. As for asking you to leave unless you break a posted rule everyone is welcome to participate in this forum.

Share, post, learn, even teach! (You never know when someone may be reading and wanting to ask just the question you asked or answered but not thinking they can! Your question/answer may be the thing that reaches someone you'll never meet or hear from.)

[jefferson101]

I want to respond to that, Sir.

And I've tried twice. But neither "condensed version" met my standards for accuracy. Such being the case, I'm going to allow someone else the first shot at it all.

If I do it, it'll be one point at a time, and I will surely endeavor to keep it below 500 words per.

(I have always maintained that a post longer than that won't get read anyway. It's just that some subjects do take a bit more depth than that allows.)

Just to note that we, or I at least, am not ignoring you. I just don't want to post a book.

[LadyKest]

He stressed to me to always say "In Jesus's name I pray" because it has to go through Jesus to be heard by God.

My grandmother used to say the same thing to me growing up. It was years later (when I actually read the Bible) that I found this quote. It was like cold water hitting my face. "Oh, now I get it."

John 14:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father. And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it."

BTW- The Bible quote was found by searching for "name ask" on Biblegateway.com. I don't know that much, just where to go to find it.

[LadyKest]

Oh forgot to tell you, some good stuff Lycan. Brings back a lot of memories for me. I appreciate your post.

[RevJoel]

In the Christian faith, the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is a founding block. The Trinity is our feeble attempt to explain the Nature of God. Like Patrick pointing to the shamrock we see that there are three parts to God; the Father, the Son and The Holy Spirit. Those three make one, and minus any of the three destroys the unity. God is fully the Father, fully the Son and fully the Holy Spirit. Each exist to be part of the whole; each is equal and each is inseprable.

[SEATTLE]

In denying the traditional teaching regarding the divinity of Jesus, I do not want to be understood as by that implying that Jesus is altogether human.

Jesus Christ, as a genuine Son of God, occupies a unique category of created being. The Book of Hebrew makes it clear that as a man, subject to mortality, He was a little lower than the immortal angels. But because of His vicarious, sinless life, death, and resurrection, He elevated Himself and in Himself all of humankind to a status surpassing that of the angels. He conquered death, bringing to light life and immortality. In other words, Jesus clarified the truth about immortality.

Paul said, “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel” (2 Timothy 1:8-10).

This purpose toward us; i.e., life and immortality, was formulated BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN. Even before the entrance of sin into the world. The Plan of Salvation was no after-thought or reaction to a failure in God’s perfect design. This eternal purpose was made possible by “solidarity”, the concept I discussed earlier in this posting.

The concept of “solidarity” should rightly be applied to all the topics of theology, such as the Creation, the Fall, and the State of the Dead because this concept underlies everything. “Solidarity” should be considered a presupposition. The implications upon our understanding of traditional theology would be revolutionary.

For example, the argument in Hebrews strongly suggests that God’s creative acts were not finished after the seven days of creation; that what is commonly thought of as the Fall and the reactive Plan of Redemption are actually part of a larger creative purpose. The “sin problem” was allowed to occur in order to elevate humankind to a higher order of created being.

In attempting to explain the State of the Dead, some Christians teach conditional immortality. But this teaching is contrary to what it means to be “in Christ”, which is the thesis of Solidarity Theology. Through His death and resurrection, Jesus conquered death and acquired immortality on behalf of us all.

Conditional immortality implies some sort of judgment. This judgment has been described by terms such as Investigative Judgment, Executive Judgment, and White Throne Judgment. Whatever the term or variation, it must be understood that “in Christ” we have already been judged and cleared. “[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit”. Romans 8:1.

Jesus voluntarily took upon Himself any and all penalties associated with humankind’s fallen condition. Justice is vindicated in Him. [Our status “in Him” is attributed to us spiritually; i.e. through adoption; rather than through lineal descent. After the coming of Jesus Christ, genealogies were no longer necessary or valid. Paul calls genealogies vain. Titus 3:9. This has important implications for determining the identity of Jesus’ successor, the Antichrist.]

Under the terms of Solidarity Theology, conditional immortality should more properly be called conditional mortality in as much as we are already and forever immortal “in Christ”.

Whatever role is assigned to ethics in our systematic theologies, it should not be subsumed under the doctrine of salvation. Our behavior, whether pro or con, does not impact in the least the complete, vicarious act of Jesus in achieving salvation for all of us. We cannot add to or subtract from it.

The “Son of God” was a status coveted by the most powerful ancients, including Alexander the Great. Alexander embarked on a quest to the temple of Zeus Ammon in Egypt in search of God’s bestowal of this honor. But the title “Son of God” is not a status that is acquired by human effort. Alexander could conquer the world, but he couldn’t conquer heaven. He couldn’t earn this honor by his own choice.

The lowly Jesus, on the other hand, was the “Son of God” because the Father chose Him. God signified His approval of Jesus by sending fire from heaven in the form of a dove. “And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased”. Matthew 3:16, 17.

Of all humankind this honor was bestowed on Jesus alone.

Through “solidarity” in Christ, all Christians also become sons and daughters of God.

The nature of Hebrew faith is relational, not philosophical. Philosophy is the provenance of the Greek, not the Hebrew. Faith-based, biblical religion should be interested in relationships, not in arguing the substance of God and His Son, which unfortunately occupied the attention of early Church Councils. After all, what man lived and witnessed the GENESIS OF GOD!?

God Himself asked this sort of question in Job.38:

[1] Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
[2] Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
[3] Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
[4] Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
[5] Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
[6] Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
[7] When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Philosophy in its many guises has all too often displaced the true work of the church, which is to preach what I call SOLIDARITY THEOLOGY, the good news that “in Christ” salvation has been already achieved on behalf of every living man, woman, and child irrespective of their race or creed. This is explicitly taught in the Book of Romans.

The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus has been a barrier to the other monotheistic religions in promoting this concept of oneness. Both Judaism and Islam have consequently erred in thinking of Jesus as no more than a prophet when in fact He is the Son of God, making Him necessarily greater than a prophet.

There is a desperate need for a return to biblical religion and a subsequent inter-faith dialogue based on the brotherhood of humankind.

According to the Book of Romans, none of this misunderstanding changes in the least the status of anyone who is “in Christ”, WHICH IS EVERYONE! The good news is that everyone is saved. The mission of the Christian is to tell them this; not a counterfeit gospel. The counterfeit is, This is what you have to do to be saved. Repeat this formula. Accept this set of sectarian doctrines. Separate yourselves from the world. Recruit from other denominations and religions. Proselytize and convert. And on and on. Whatever people can invent.

What a difference it would make to say to one’s neighbor, By the way, you may never have heard of someone named Jesus Christ, but He knows you and saved you without you even knowing it. I have come to tell you about this great gift He has given you, the gift of immortality; and I’d like to tell you more about Him and His gift if you want to hear it.

So how did the elevation of Jesus to “God”-status occur?

As Christianity spread toward Rome and gained increasing numbers of Gentile adherents, believers lost sight of the biblical concept of “solidarity”, which was displaced by its cultural counterpart “western individualism”.

“Individualism” is a Greek, democratic philosophy that values the person, single to itself, as the standard. “Solidarity”, on the other hand, values the group over the individual. A clash in cultural understanding over the concepts of Hebrew “solidarity” and Greek “individualism” resulted in the gradual elevation of Jesus from the Hebrew Son of God to the western co-equal of God Himself.

But this is only one phase of an evolving process. I believe this process was orchestrated by Satan.

Shortly before the birth of Christianity, a nefarious cult arose within the pagan faith of Rome. This cult worshipped the caesars after their deaths, claiming that they had achieved the rank of godhood!

A “cult” is a religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

In Rome, no person was more authoritarian or charismatic than Caesar.

Beginning with Gaius Julius Caesar in 63 B.C., the caesars held the religious title “Pontifex Maximus”. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar), “This election [of Julius Caesar to the pontificate] bestowed considerable power on Caesar, with the opportunity for income. The Pontifex was elected to a lifetime term. While technically not a political office, the pontificate provided considerable advantages in dealing with the Senate and legislation”.

Thus, for the first time in Republican Roman history, the offices and powers of the “church” and the “state” were merged under the administration of Caesar.

“Pontifex Maximus” was the highest title in the pagan Roman religions. According to Wikipedia, “it gradually became politicized until, beginning with Augustus, it was subsumed into the Imperial office”. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_Maximus.) With the later adoption of Christianity as the official Roman State religion and the subsequent transfer of powers from the caesars to the popes, the lowly Jesus Christ was elevated to divine status. The divinity of Jesus as an article of faith was debated at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. Roman Emperor Constantine I settled the matter in favor of the doctrine of the Trinity, but the controversy resurfaced from time to time. “While Arianism [the teaching that Jesus is or was a created being] did dominate for several decades in the family of the Emperor, the Imperial nobility and higher ranking clergy, in the end it was Trinitarianism which prevailed theologically and politically at the end of the fourth century, and which has since been a virtually uncontested doctrine in all major branches of the Eastern and Western Church” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arianism).

The assumption of the title “Pontifex Maximus” was a step toward the deification of Roman emperors and the eventual development of the Imperial cult worship of the caesars.

In the Roman Empire the Imperial cult was the worship of the Roman emperor as a god. Julius Caesaer was the first to receive the “honor” of divus. However, the practice of deifying caesars didn’t become subsumed until the start of the Empire under Augustus. Imperial deification became a prominent element of Roman religion.

Divus is Latin for “god” or “divine figure”.

Emperors were deified through a process that involved the sanction and concurrence of the people via a republican method of representation:

“Divus was appended to the names of several notable Roman personages. In the Roman Republic and Principate, exceptional leaders and heroes could be deified by popular consent or by a motion in the Senate. Some deified in this way include Romulus (deified as Quirinus), Julius Caesar, Augustus, Livia, Claudius, Vespasian and Titus.

“Usually the title was awarded posthumously, but Caligula awarded himself divine status while still alive. Later, during the Dominate, all reigning Emperors were deified until the rise of Christianity put an end to the practice.” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divus).

The cult spread over the whole empire within a few decades, more strongly in the east than in the west. It was gradually abandoned when Emperor Constantine I started supporting Christianity.

I am indebted to the following website for its introductory discussion of the Roman Imperial Cult (http://www.liminalityland.com/imperialcult.htm):

“We often think, in the modern Christian-influenced religious viewpoint, that the Roman Imperial Cult, its worship of past emperors, is strange and even perhaps ridiculous. However, the connection between kingship and divinity is something which was not an exclusively Roman phenomenon; in fact, most cultures which have a monarchical institution have some notion of this, whether as the Pharaoh of Egypt as the living embodiment of Horus, Ra, or another supreme solar deity, the emperors of Japan and China, to variations on this in the ancient Greek world, the Celtic concept of sovereignty and the king's perfection ensuring fertility and plenty in the material world, and so forth. Even the ‘divine rights’ of kings in the medieval era are a distant echo of this type of phenomenon; the British acclamation ‘The king is dead; long live the king’ being one such form of this--that the divinity inherent in the royal person transcends their life . . .

“The Roman manifestation of this differs in that within Rome itself, the living Emperor was not treated as a god, though in the Eastern provinces this was often the case; the emperor's true godhead was not made apparent until after his death, when his apotheosis occurred in the form of a particular highly ritualized royal funeral. And not every emperor received this honor: of the sixty emperors from Augustus to Constantine, only thirty-six were divinized, and twenty-seven members of their families were also given divine status. When it was decided to do this to a deceased emperor, usually on the initiative of a deceased emperor's surviving heir (whether genetic or adoptive), the Senate had to vote on the decision, and the proper royal funeral was then arranged; the deceased person was then given the title ‘Divus’ or ‘Diva,’ and they were granted a temple and priests, and sometimes a priestly college like the sodales Augustales was formed in their honor. They were not quite like the rest of the traditional deities, they were something of a class apart: insults against a divus were treated as insults against a god rather than an insult against a living emperor and thus were not handled by the legal system; legacies which would have gone to a divus were given to the living emperor; and the images of a divus were no longer carried in processions of ancestors on the occasion of funerals and other festivals. All over the empire, altars are found dedicated to the ‘Numen Augusti,’ the divine spirit of past and present emperors. . . .”

Gaius Julius Caesar fathered the Julio-Claudian Dynasty, which ruled the late Roman Republic and early Roman Empire in some form or another from 49 BC (Julius Caesar's first dictatorship) to 68 AD (Nero's suicide). Following Julius Caesar's death and deification, it was natural to think of each of his descendants as a “Son of God”, meaning at its least “the son of the god, Julius Caesar”.

Most, if not all, of the Christian canon, including the Book of Revelation, was written during the timeframe of the last ruler to come from this dynasty, Nero Caesar.

Jesus indirectly denied the divinity of Caesar when Jesus stated, “Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's” (Matthew 22:21).

The New Testament, with its concept of the “Son of God” was written against the backdrop of the competitive ideology of the Imperial Cult with its own different concept of the “Son of God”.

As the authentic Son of God, Jesus Christ occupies a unique category of created being. It follows that the Antichrist, also the Son of God, shares in this unique status.

The meaning of “Son of God”; its status, role, functions, etc. is worthy of further study as it pertains to both Jesus Christ and the Antichrist. For instance, what is the Antichrist’s role in the Plan of Salvation under the terms of Solidarity Theology?

[Kestryll]

Sorry it's been so long, life and being sick caught me while I wasn't looking.

The original intent was to go through by verses with discussion but I think there are some things here we might want to delve further into.

The original topic is still runnng, give me a bit to figure the wording out but I do want to address your post Lycan.

[LadyKest]

Seattle wrote:

As the authentic Son of God, Jesus Christ occupies a unique category of created being. It follows that the Antichrist, also the Son of God, shares in this unique status.

Just for clarification here Seattle. Are you saying that both Jesus and the Antichrist are Sons of God? Also, can you clarify what you mean by Jesus as a "created being" keeping in mind our text:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1).

Thanks,

LK

[SEATTLE]

Yes, I am saying that both Jesus and the Antichrist are Sons of God.

I am writing a brief piece on the Antichrist in the Book of Romans, in which I address "created being". I should be posting it within a day or two, so please be watchful for it.

John 1:1 has already been addressed. The pre-existence of Jesus is explained by the Eastern concept of Solidarity. Jesus had been in the "bowels" of the Father from the beginning. In this sense Jesus participated in The Creation.

Thank you for your sincere and polite questions.

[Kestryll]

Originally posted by LYCAN:
Ok, Good idea Kestryll, I will state what I do know or was taught.
Jesus = Son of God, Not "GOD" himself, possibly a form of extension.
Why was Jesus sent, kinda like the bad smell thing. But as my pastor once put it: God is perfect/pure and man is not.

What does ‘Son of God’ mean to you? Is Jesus a creation of God or a component of God?
You said possibly a form of extension, what manner of extension? Most Biblical texts say ‘In the beginning there was God’, was Jesus there with God or did He come into existence later?
I mean these questions seriously; I’m trying to get a better feel and understanding of where you’re at before making an assumption. Sometimes questions like this can come across as confrontational, especially in text without the verbal contexts.

These answers might also help others give a more complete response as well [and likely better than I could do! ]

[RevJoel]

Kestryll...

Conventional Trinitarian believe states that the Triune Godhead always was, always is, and always will be. God the Father is complete in Himself, God the Son is complete in Himself and God the Holy Spirit is complete in Himself. All three are equal and existant in unity as three parts to the whole. Jesus and the Holy Spirit existed in the Godhead from the beginning and as such is inseperable from Him.

[Buck]

The Scripture is quite clear that Christ is not the only son of God. When the earth was first formed the sons of God were assembled and the Morning Stars or Light Bearers sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy (Job 38:4-7).

Was Christ given sole control of the world?

The answer is an emphatic no. The nations were allocated their inheritance by the Most High according to the number of the sons of God (Deut. 32:8).

YHWH's portion was Israel. Jacob is his allotted heritage (Deut. 32:9). YHWH here was allotted his portion by the Most High. The term YHWH is thus applied to a subordinate God.


If the assertion is made that the Sons of God are angels, then the claim must also be made that Christ is included in this category. From Acts 7:35-39 it was an angel which spoke to Moses on Sinai and this Angel was the one that later became Christ, but at the time on Sinai he was know as YHWH.


Did all those sons of God have access to the throne of God?

The answer is yes. The sons of God presented themselves before God on a regular basis (Job. 1:6; 2:1). This included Satan who was also a son of God (Job 2:1) and the theos or god of this world (2Cor. 4:4).

Were all those sons faithful?

The answer is no. The sons of God left their own positions allocated to them and hence face judgment (Jude 6; Gen. 6:4). Satan took a third of the sons of God and rebelled against the Most High God (Rev. 12:3-6).


+

[ March 04, 2006, 02:34: Message edited by: Buck ]