Announcement

**Wolf** · February 7, 2006, 02:30

I think this is a great idea, Ill be here as much as I can.

**Buck** · February 7, 2006, 10:11

"The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old;

I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began.

When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;

before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.

I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,

when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.

Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence. (Proverbs 8:22-30 NIV)

+

**jefferson101** · February 7, 2006, 16:38

I'm of the opinion that the standard description of Christ as "the Son of God" misses the mark. And this particular section of scripture is what I use to support that point.

Jesus Christ is the literal physical embodiment of the Will of God. The "Word", which caused creation to happen. The force, if you will, by and through which the Lord's will is done.

And, of course, The Father's Will is, and has ever been, an integral part of Him.

**Buck** · February 10, 2006, 08:24

Originally posted by LYCAN:
ok, what are we discussing?

The Gospel of John. Beginning with chapter 1 v 1-5. Give corroborating scripture and/or commentary/questions.

**freedom1776** · February 10, 2006, 13:59

A very religious fellow I once knew explained it to me like this, and I'm not sure if I agree or disagree. After original sin, mans bloodline was tainted. Everyone ever born is born with the guilt of original sin. This guilt runs through the male line-you get it from your father, not your mother. Christ was birthed through the virgin conception because the lord was his biological father. Basic concept here is that god breathed life into Mary's egg in the same way he breathed life into Adam. Jesus was thus free from the guilt of original sin. Since Jesus was also able to resist satan, he remained free of guilt. Since he died sin free, he immediately(three days really isn't that long) was risen to sit at the right hand of the lord. When we take communion and drink of his blood-ie the bloodline-and eat of his flesh, we are assuming a bloodpact with him as a brother under the lord. Sort of like adoption but it goes so much further than that involving spirituality in a level we as humans are incapable of understanding. We however do live a sinful life, even if after you are saved if you repent to the point of actually never sinning again, you still have sinned. Thus we are not risen until judgement day when we will be spared because our brother has assumed the punishment for us. There is another bit of this about the bloodline being able to be recieved from your biological father if he was saved when he concieved you with your mother. Its all a bit out there and have always wanted to hear another christians thoughts on this.

**m92s** · February 10, 2006, 14:29

The first thing I'd like to contribute (if you can call it that) to the thread is that it might be fruitful if answers were kept relatively short.
If the posts are too long it's hard/time consuming to answer the posts in their intirety (sp?), and it may also drive away some people who, although interested, are overwhelmed by the lenght and depth of other peoples posts. Not all people know the scripture by hearth, and it takes alot of time to find the correct passages to support ones view.
I also have a vested interest in this as english is not my native language, so I know the bible in finnish the best, and certain passages carry slightly different meaning in my bible than in the english (King James version), so I have to do alot of doublechecking.

Other than that, carry on!

**jefferson101** · February 10, 2006, 20:05

Lycan:

I couldn't begin to address your "original Sin" question in 5000 words or less, even if I were to think that I was conversant enough with the subject to take a stab at it.

But I will comment that the guy who told you that had it right in my mind. That's why the "Virgin Birth" thing is so critical. It's not the sex part that matters, but the bloodline is critical to why a guy named Jesus of Nazareth was The Christ. And the "humanity", in a way of speaking. He was as we are, but he was not like us, if you follow my distinction.

Back to the Scripture we're on, though...The thing that I suspect that a lot of people don't recognize about Jesus is just how integral He was and is in everything that The Father has done and will do.

Anytime you see the words "The Lord SAID", in the Scripture, remember who is referred to as "The Word". Then you know who did it.

The Father speaks. And Jesus makes it happen.

**Beau Zoe** · February 11, 2006, 09:16

I do not believe that God will punish me for any transgression that has been committed by anyone else, is currently being committed by anyone else, or ever will be committed by anyone else--this includes any transgressions of Adam, Eve, Attila The Hun, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Frank Sinatra, Mick Jagger, or even Freedom 1776. From what I read in Holy Scripture, I will be judged out of the books that contain the deeds that I have done--as well as the deeds that I do NOT do.

* * * * *

I love the first portion of John, the so-called "LOGOS Hymn." As a composer, I even set this to music once. I believe that the theology presented herein is truly beautiful and goes to the very core of what Christianity espouses. We claim that Jesus, called the Christ (the annointed one--the Hebrew "Messiah") is the literal, physical offspring of God the Father, that He was in the begining with God, that He was a co-creator with God, that (eternal) life is in Him, and that He brought forth His light into the world which, at the time, did not "comprehend" it.

Pretty bold claims for a religion, huh? We claim an actual earthly sojourn by the literal Son of God who came here to provide us an example for our lives and to provide us with a way to return and live with Him and our Father in Heaven.

Great stuff! Great choice of a scripture to start off this "study" that you have commenced.

**Kestryll** · February 12, 2006, 00:37

I tend to think Jeff is on the track with this. We too often focus on the portion of Jesus' diety when he was here on earth. It is a vital part but there is much more to it than just that.

Jesus Christ is the literal physical embodiment of the Will of God. The "Word", which caused creation to happen. The force, if you will, by and through which the Lord's will is done.

Beau, correct me if I am wrong but I am reading it as you do not believe in the 'Original Sin' concept, is this right? If so when we get to that point I will be interested in hearing why you do not, which Scripture you base it on and which Scripture those that do believe it base their beliefs on. Not to contest it but to see the different views.
However, since we are in John...

Perhaps to start this off a bit I can post a few questions from a study of John I have.

1. Why do you think John calls Jesus "the Word"

2. In verses 1-5 what facts does John declare to be true of the Word?

3. Which of these facts most helps you to understand who Jesus is?

**LadyKest** · February 12, 2006, 01:23

Hello all,
This is my first post on the board so be kind. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I recently read some info that I found helpful in regards to freedom1776 comments. Hopefully you'll find it of use as well.

The importance of Jesus' virgin birth:
1) It shows that salvation can only come through the power of God and not by human effort.
2) It made it possible to completely unite man with God because Jesus was both fully man and fully God (John 3:16). There are other ways God could have accomplished this but they would have left questions in our minds as to either Jesus' deity or humanity.
3) It made it possible for Jesus to be born without sin (original sin). Since Jesus did not have a human father he was not a descendant of Adam and thus did not inherit legal guilt or a corrupt moral nature. In the case of Mary his mother the Holy Spirit intervened and interrupted the transmission of guilt. The Roman Catholic church answers this with the doctrine of the immaculate conception. Saying that Mary was also born without sin and "was free from sinning her whole life" (Systematic Theology, Wayne Grudem).

[ February 12, 2006, 01:37: Message edited by: LadyKest ]

**sling** · February 12, 2006, 21:11

I agree that Jeff101 is on track with this also. I would like to add for study purposes the following..... A translation of John 1-5 from the ancient aramaic text.....

The Testament of John

John One

1. In the beginning [of creation]
there was the Manifestation*;
And that Manifestation was with God;
and God was [the embodiment of] that Manifestation.
2. This was in the beginning with God.
3. Everything was within his power*,
[otherwise] nothing would ever exist.*
4. Through him [there] was Life*
and Life became the spark* of humanity
5. And that [ensuing] fire* lights the darkness
and darkness does not overshadow it.

Footnotes:

1:1 "Milta," in Aramaic: the essential connotation for a person or thing.
There is no true English equivalent for this concept.
1:3 Literal Aramaic idiom [Lit. Ar. id.]: "[In his] hand."
1:4.1 Lit. Ar. idiomatic construction: "And without his hand, not one [thing that] became would have become."
1:4.2 "Lives," whenever it represents: "life everlasting" is stated in the plural. When used in this sense it will always be capitalized in this translation and appear as "Life."
1:4.3 Lit. Ar. id.: "Light."
1:5 Lit. Ar. id.: "Light."

**jefferson101** · February 12, 2006, 22:23

I didn't get much chance to do the searches I wanted to do today. I was in the Grandpa business, and the little guy gets priority 'round my house.

But the synopsis goes like this. When Eve ate that apple, or whatever it was, which gave us the knowledge of good and evil, it created a rift between Man and The Lord.

It caused us (Man, in the generic) to have a 'foul smell' to the nostrils of God. So he cannot abide our presence, either here or in the hereafter.

I don't pretend to understand that, and I equally don't pretend to understand exactly why the sacrificial blood is the cure for that "foul smell". But I do know that we are told that it is effective.

That is the origin of the Jewish sacrifice ritual. The atoning blood. And Jesus Christ was the ultimate atonement. One last sacrifice, to serve for all who believe, forever.

But that is the exact reason that the exact understanding of who Jesus, the Christ, was is so important. The Lord God sent Himself, in the person of his Will and Word, here to make us acceptable to Him in Heaven.

He would not have gone to that trouble if it wasn't necessary, or if he didn't want us to be with him, now would he have?

I'll go on later. But you can look it all up, if you want.

**SEATTLE** · February 13, 2006, 18:16

Kestryll has chosen the passage John 1:1-5 and the subject of the deity of Jesus Christ.

The key to understanding this passage is the concept of SOLIDARITY. This is an eastern cultural ideal. It is also a biblical ideal.

What is �solidarity�?

�Solidarity� is the Hebrew concept of corporate identity.

In both the Old and New Testaments, the concept of solidarity underlies kinship, marriage, common residence, occupations, covenants, and, subjectively, affection.

I will cite a few quick examples.

In the Old Testament, we discover this concept embedded within the Ten Commandments constitution itself. According to Deuteronomy 5:

[9] Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
[10] And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.

God�s curse, which is associated with the negative actions of one�s parents, has consequences for their children, grandchildren, and even their great-grandchildren. Three generations. But observe that God�s blessing reverberates to thousands of generations. God is just and good indeed!

Next, �solidarity� is detected in God�s acts, catalogued in Deuteronomy 11: �And what he did unto Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, the son of Reuben: how the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their households, and their tents, and all the substance that was in their possession, in the midst of all Israel� (verse 6). �Solidarity� is also illustrated in the story of Achan, which is found in the seventh chapter of Joshua. Joshua, and all Israel with him, �took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor. And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones� (verses 24 and 25).

In the New Testament, the Hebrew concept of �solidarity� is reflected in the �in Christ� paradigm, which is the goal and substance of the everlasting gospel.

�Solidarity� was a philosophical concept considered foolishness to the Greek. 1 Corinthians 1:23. But �the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness�. 1 Corinthians 3:19. Yet Paul determined to know nothing but the gospel (1 Corinthians 2:2ff); Paul said he had the mind of Christ (verse 16). Paul bids us to �let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus�. Philemon 2:5. Paul wants us to think like Jesus thought; i.e., like a biblical Hebrew.

We participate in the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ because we are �in Him�. It is thus that we partake of His merits.

A prime example of biblical �solidarity� in the New Testament is Hebrews 7:9-10, in which Levi paid tithes to Melchizedek �in Abraham�: �And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him [Abraham]�. Through �solidarity� all men share a common heritage.

This may not make sense to our accustomed way of thinking today, but it is biblical and most importantly, strikes at the very heart of the everlasting gospel.

The �in Christ� paradigm is explicitly connected to the evangelical message of salvation in Ephesians 2:4-9:

[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[7] That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Because we are �in Christ�, we RIGHT THIS MINUTE sit with Him in heavenly places.

�In Christ� or �in Christ Jesus�. The truth expressed by this phrase is also expressed by other similar phrases such as �in Him� or �together with Him� or �in the beloved� or �in whom,� etc.

Without doubt, �solidarity� has huge implications not only for our understanding of evangelical salvation, but also our understanding of last events, which is known as eschatology.

�Solidarity� makes �inaugurated eschatology� understandable. �Inaugurated eschatology� is the concept that things now are as though they were things to come. The future is inaugurated into the present. Some have called this, �Already, but not yet�. This is possible because Christ's people are united in Him. Jesus stands at the head of humanity as the �New Man�, an altogether new category of created being.

In the Book of Romans, Paul teaches that God created all men in one man (Adam); Satan then ruined all men in Adam; likewise, God redeemed all men in one man (Christ). It is thus that Jesus stands at the head of a renewed humanity as the Second Adam. Also, on the basis of �solidarity�, Jesus could state to the unbelieving Jews, �Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it� (John 8:44).

How did Jesus become �God�?

�Solidarity� is a Hebrew concept; it is neither a Greek, nor a democratic, concept. As Christianity spread in the direction of Rome and gained increasing numbers of Gentile adherents, believers lost sight of the biblical concept of solidarity, which was displaced by its cultural counterpart �western individualism�.

�Individualism� is a Greek, democratic philosophy that values the person, single to itself, as the standard. �Solidarity�, on the other hand, values the group over the individual.

Jesus is the �Son of God�. This is the theme of the Book of John. John grouped together his proofs for this legitimate claim, including his argument for the pre-existence of Jesus, which is rooted in the concept of �solidarity�. Unfortunately, in my opinion, a clash in cultural understanding over the concepts of Hebrew �solidarity� and Greek �individualism� resulted in the gradual elevation of Jesus from the Hebrew Son of God to the western co-equal of God Himself.

I do not believe that the Apostle John ever believed or taught the deity of Jesus Christ. No monotheistic Jew would have done so. Instead, John taught that because Jesus is the Son of God, He has authority to speak on behalf of the Father and create newness, even the new birth. Jesus has power to do this by His spoken word. He enlightens. His teachings are not like the teachings of other men: �The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things�. John 4:25. He has the power to judge, while no man may judge Him. Lastly, Jesus is always in complete control, going to His death willingly.

What implication does �solidarity� have on the traditional teaching that Jesus is divine?

JESUS IS NOT GOD. Being divine and doing �divine� acts are separate concepts. Jesus is the Son of God. As such, He has authority to speak in the name of the Father. But neither does this mean that Jesus co-existed independently from the Father, nor that Jesus is God Himself

**jefferson101** · February 13, 2006, 19:25

Originally posted by SEATTLE:
JESUS IS NOT GOD. Being divine and doing �divine� acts are separate concepts. Jesus is the Son of God. As such, He has authority to speak in the name of the Father. But neither does this mean that Jesus co-existed independently from the Father, nor that Jesus is God Himself

I beg to differ. You are correct in saying that Jesus did not, and does not coexist independent of The Father.

But what does the Scripture say?

"1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.

In the KJV, it says that "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Sling's Aramaic translation says that "1. In the beginning [of creation]
there was the Manifestation*;
And that Manifestation was with God;
and God was [the embodiment of] that Manifestation."

God's Will is a part of God. God's Word is a part of God.

And that's all I'm going to say about it.

Announcement

Bible Study

Bible Study

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment