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How the scribes copied the Sacred Scrolls

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  • #16
    btt
    Take up our quarrel with the foe<br />To you from failing hands we throw<br />The torch; be yours to hold it high.<br />If ye break faith with us who die<br />We shall not sleep, though poppies grow<br />In Flanders fields.<br /><br />Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae (1872-1918)<br /><br />Support...<i>really</i> support...our vets!

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    • #17
      <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mama06:
      PM:

      Well, it will take me days to really study all that is here, but I'm still wondering about the other question as well...

      Since you posted that, "Jesus did not come to start a new religion, he came to enhance Judaism and offer conversion to the lost tribes of Israel." does this mean that you see Him as actually the son of G-d and the messiah, in your opinion, or just a Jewish rabbi with an evangelical calling for reaching the 'lost tribes'?
      <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

      btt

      Take up our quarrel with the foe<br />To you from failing hands we throw<br />The torch; be yours to hold it high.<br />If ye break faith with us who die<br />We shall not sleep, though poppies grow<br />In Flanders fields.<br /><br />Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae (1872-1918)<br /><br />Support...<i>really</i> support...our vets!

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      • #18
        <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mama06:
        btt

        <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

        Mama06, rather than just giving a yes or no answer, which can be taken incorrectly either way, I have linked an article that goes into depth about your question. If it makes sense to you, please let me know. There are many other articles from different websites that comprise 20+ years of study. I'll pass them along to you if you want. They are broken down into short articles dealing with single issues, so you don't have to take up gazillions of bits on the computer when you download. Anyway, the link is:
        http://www.faithofyeshua.faithweb.co...hink_again.htm

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        • #19
          Well, that was an interesting read...but I'm still not clear on a few things.

          I agree that some Christians have a different mental picture of Jesus as a man than I do. I've never really understood why some have painted Him as they have, as I had been taught as a child to understand that He was born a Jew and would have probably 'looked like' and dressed as other Jews of the day.

          This excerpt from the site doesn't sit well with me, though...

          &lt;snip&gt;In Jewish tradition preserved in the Talmud, which (in spite of medieval Christian attempts at censorship) does contain a few indirect references to him, Jesus is not referred to as the son of Joseph. Of course Jews did not believe in the Christian legend of the virgin birth of Jesus, but in that case we should have expected that he would be referred to as the son of his supposed father, Joseph. He is actually called in these references Yeshua ben Pantera, Jesus son of Pantera. In these earliest sources there is no explanation for the name, but later Jewish tradition took it to mean that Jews remembered that he had not been the son of Joseph but the offspring of a rape or seduction of Mary by a Roman soldier named Pantera.&lt;snip&gt;

          ...as I believe whole heartedly that the Virgin Birth was a reality and do not see it as mearly a "Christian legend".

          I read of 'proofs' in that article...of a place where a Roman soldier was burried with the same name as the one who reportedly raped Mary...but these are not 'proof' to me, they are mearly rumors, as far as I can tell. (No offense intended, that's just the way it struck me.)

          I went to the main page of the web site, and from what I can gather so far, this site is saying, amoung other things, that the one we have come to know as Jesus is not the Fulfillment of Isaiah 9:6.

          Isa 9:6-7 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. (KJV)

          It seems to me as what this site is saying is that the one we've come to know as Jesus, is not the Savior or the Messiah. Am I not getting it or do I have to read more?

          I don't mean to sound dense, but there has to be a simple answer to a simple question for my simple brain to get it some of these days.
          Take up our quarrel with the foe<br />To you from failing hands we throw<br />The torch; be yours to hold it high.<br />If ye break faith with us who die<br />We shall not sleep, though poppies grow<br />In Flanders fields.<br /><br />Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae (1872-1918)<br /><br />Support...<i>really</i> support...our vets!

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          • #20
            Hi Mama06. You're understanding the author of the site correctly, but please read on. Yes, it is quite extensive, I've put in over 75 hours, and that is just reading the articles that I didn't know anything about before.

            As for the Talmudic quote that was in the article; please understand that the Talmud is really a discussion of the Law and how historical events and possible scenarios fit into the Law and how one should be judged according to the Law when they do certain things or when these events happen.

            It is hard to explain and hard to understand without having the Mishna in front of you so you can "see" what it is all about. Here's an example; Jews are required to recite the Shema (Deut 6:4) twice a day (when you rise up and when you lay down). There is a whole discussion about that in the Talmud concerning when you have to say it if you are awake all night studying or conversing! Really! There were a group of rabbis sitting around discussing Torah one evening and they got so involved they lost track of time and it was morning before they knew it. So then they went into another long discourse about whether they neglected keeping a mitzva (commandment) because they never really laid down that night to go to sleep!

            So, you see, its really not something that is set in stone, or some type of God's honest truth, its just discussion/debate written down for future generations like a diary or journal.

            BTW, a few months ago, you mentioned that you used to be a trauma nurse in NJ. I was born and raised there, did you work at Cooper Hospital? Were you originally from NJ?

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            • #21
              <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Patriot Mom:
              ...BTW, a few months ago, you mentioned that you used to be a trauma nurse in NJ. I was born and raised there, did you work at Cooper Hospital? Were you originally from NJ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

              I was working as a Respiratory Therapist in a few regional Trauma facilities. I worked for an agency part of the time I was there and worked at several hospitals.

              I remember Cooper very well. Man, it could really get busy there!!!

              I'm originally from TN, but I lived in NJ (South Jersey) for 8 1/2 years.

              I enjoyed the Garden State and made a lot of good friends there, but I'm glad to be back home where my family is.

              (But you still can't get a real good cheese steak or meatball hoagie here...the bread's just not the same.
              Take up our quarrel with the foe<br />To you from failing hands we throw<br />The torch; be yours to hold it high.<br />If ye break faith with us who die<br />We shall not sleep, though poppies grow<br />In Flanders fields.<br /><br />Lieutenant Colonel John McCrae (1872-1918)<br /><br />Support...<i>really</i> support...our vets!

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              • #22
                <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>(But you still can't get a real good cheese steak or meatball hoagie here...the bread's just not the same.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

                AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH! Maine and the rest of the country is in the same boat! Oh, how I miss those "hard rolls". Cheese steaks, hoagies, meatball sandwiches and a million others! MAN! that bread is good, and ya just can't get it outside of the South Jersey - Philadelphia area - it must be something in the water...

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                • #23
                  <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Patriot Mom:
                  I wrote on a different thread about how the original Scriptures were copied without mistakes and without adding anything to them, even their own interpretation of God's word.
                  <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
                  http://www.theology.edu/summ3.htm
                  2. The Manuscripts of the Bible

                  For the Old Testament, the traditional text is what is known as the Masoretic. The Masoretes were Jewish scholars who worked diligently between the 6th and 10th
                  centuries A.D. in Babylonia and Palestine to reproduce, as far as possible, the original text of the Old Testament. Their intention was not to interpret the Bible, but to
                  transmit to future generations what they regarded as the authentic text. Therefore, to this end, they gathered manuscripts and whatever oral traditions were available to
                  them. They were careful to draw attention to any peculiarities they found in the spellings of words or the grammar of sentences in the Old Testament, and since Hebrew in
                  their day was a dying language, they introduced a series of vowel signs to insure the correct pronunciation of the text, since traditionally, the text was written with
                  consonants only. Among the various systems developed to represent the vowel sounds, the system developed in the city of Tiberias, on the shore of the Sea of Galilee,
                  gained the ascendancy. The earliest complete copy of the Masoretic text of the Old Testament is located in the St. Petersburg (formerly Leningrad) Public Library; it was
                  written about 1008 A.D.

                  The Masoretic text is not a single, unbroken thread, but rather a river of manuscripts, with both a western and eastern branch; within the texts labeled "Masoretic" there is
                  a certain amount of variation and the Masoretes carefully noted the differences in the texts that they used as their sources.


                  Textual criticism proceeds in three steps:

                  a. All the variant readings of the text are collected and arranged. Of course, this is the very reason textual criticism is necessary at all. If we had only a single copy, there
                  would be no questions, but since we have several, which all say different things, we have a problem. Which text accurately records the original statements?

                  b. The variants must then be examined.

                  c. The most likely reading is then determined.

                  For the Old Testament, in order to carry out these steps, it is necessary to use the Masoretic Text, which ordinarily serves as the basis from which the textual critic will
                  work. Combined with the Masoretic Text the critic will consult all the ancient Hebrew manuscripts and versions that might be available.

                  2. The most important Hebrew manuscripts for Old Testament textual criticism are:

                  a. The St. Petersburg (or Leningrad) Codex, 1008 A.D. It is the largest and only complete manuscript of the entire Old Testament.

                  b. The Aleppo Codex, 930 A.D. It used to be a complete copy of the Old Testament, but was partially destroyed in a synagogue fire in 1948.

                  c. The British Museum Codex, 950 A.D. It is an incomplete copy of the Pentateuch.

                  d. The Cairo Codex, 895 A.D. A copy of the Former and Latter Prophets (Joshua, Judges, 1 and 2 Samuel, 1 and 2 Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the twelve minor
                  prophets).

                  e. The St. Petersburg (Leningrad) Codex of the Prophets, 916 A.D. containing only the Latter Prophets.

                  f. The Reuchlin Codex of the Prophets, 1105 A.D.

                  g. Cairo Geniza fragments, 6th to 9th century, A.D.

                  h. Qumran Manuscripts (the Dead Sea Scrolls), 200 B.C - 70 A.D.

                  3. The most important ancient translations of the Old Testament into languages other than Hebrew are:

                  a. The Septuagint (several versions)

                  b. The Aramaic Targums (several versions)

                  c. The Syriac Peshitta

                  d. The Samaritan Pentateuch

                  e. The Latin Vulgate


                  5. Homoioteleuton -- an even fancier word which refers to the error that occurs when two words are identical, or similar in form, or have similar endings and are close to
                  each other. It is easy in this sort of situation for the eye of the copyist to skip from one word to the other, leaving out everything in between. A good example of this occurs
                  in 1 Samuel 14:41:

                  Therefore Saul said unto the Lord God of Israel, give a perfect lot. (KJV)

                  Therefore Saul said, "O Lord God of Israel, why hast thou not answered thy servant this day? If this guilt is in me or in Jonathan my son, O Lord, God of
                  Israel, give Urim: but if this guilt is in thy people Israel, give Thummim. (RSV)

                  The copyist's eye jumped from the first instance of the word "Israel" to the last instance, leaving out everything in between for the reading that the KJV translators had at
                  their disposal. The word translated "perfect" is spelled with the same consonants in Hebrew (TH-M-M) as the word Thummim.



                  [This message has been edited by gconan (edited 03 August 2002).]

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