Realistic # of SHTF Firearms

[J_Smith]

I've been buying, shooting, and upgrading firearms since I was fifteen. I'm now into my 20's - have two M-4-gerys (preban), AK-74, Ruger 10/22, FN-FAL, two Sig Sauer handguns,.....when is enough enough?.....I leave active duty in the near future and will need to consider things such as education, owning property, etc.......Actual "bills" something that not an issue when the military provides cost of living.....I've thought about buying a Remington 700PSS and a Ruger .22 pistol - and calling it good.......Anyone have any perspective on how many firearms I need for practical purposes? I figure two preban M-4's in case I ever have to "put one away" - out of sight, out of mind......Everything is all legal - but if my state should every become like Kalifornia.....

[mosquito creek patriot]

I assume the 2 M-4's are some type of AR?

OK, I recomend a light caliber carbine and you seem to have that covered.

I also recomend a .308 cal rifle and you have that covered with the FAL.
If you FAL will shoot around 2-1/2" groups at 100 W/iron forget the 700PPS. Put a quality QD scope system on your FAL.

If your by yourself or with just a couple friends you'll need the firepower of SA. Sure, the 700 will be more accurate, but for most shooting the FAL will be sufficient. Now if your trying to shoot a Taliban hiding behind a hostage at 800 meters than you need a bolt rifle.

What do you need the AK-74 for? If your trying to cut down on weapons sell that one.
Parts and ammo are iffy unless the Soviets invade Kali then you can get one off of a dead soldier.

Get you a pump 12 -gauge.

You have a .22 rifle. Get a .22 pistol as well.

And you have a couple centerfire pistols.
If these are concealable then your covered.

MCP

[USA-1]

I am no expert,but since you can probably only fire one at a time,I would say you have enough,just practice regularly with them.

[Different]

IMHO, the minimum inventory is two .308 OR two .223 semi-auto rifles (the same model), one 12 gauge shotgun, one centerfire semi-auto pistol, and one .22LR rifle. FWIW

[FourDeuce]

I'd recommend a copy of Survival Guns by Mel Tappan. He answered that question pretty well in that book. In his opinion, you could drive across the country on bald tires, but he wouldn't recommend it. Many people find the arsenal he recommended excessive, but needing a gun and not having it could be rough.

[J_Smith]

I've read just about every book by Duncan Long and Ragnar Benson plus Survival Guns by Mel Tappen. Excellent writers BTW. I used to be very active in the patriot movement - more low key now due to military status. The M-4's are just AR-15's in legal semiauto M-4 configuration. Both pre-94 AR's. The semiauto AK-74 is accurate and reliable as hell - maybe it should go into hiding for a rainy day. A lot of people recommend that one has a good long range bolt-action rifle. I have the FAL, not sure if I really need sniper quality. My Sig P-228 is excellent. I've owned several shotguns but was never too impressed with them. I hate the safety on the Mossberg 590 - if I do get another shotgun it would be a Remington 870 or Ithaca 37 if I could ever find one. Not sure if I really need a shotgun though. The Ruger MK II .22lr pistol is well liked by a lot of people I know - I'm just debating its usefullness to me - should I purchase one. Thanks for all the thoughts so far. I'm now realizing.........I'll be out of the military soon and will have BILLS. Vehicle no problem but I still need to consider owning my own land, education, etc........

Dude I think you're hooked. Like a lot of addicts at AW, there is never enough. You keep finding yourself drawn to gun stores and gunshows, ordering out of Shotgun news, and spending hours looking on the net for new deals. There is no cure. Just when you think you have it all, there will be something else you want. It's not just about SHTF, it's about how cool it all is and how cool it looks when you have it.

[JW]

It's always nice to have a few extras available in case a team mate needs one. Ya might have to bail out fast for what ever reason & it's comforting to know theres a "stash" available or ya might find yourself on the dirty end of a raid & loose everything you currently have. As someone else's sig line says...."if it's not cached then you don't really have it"...

[FourDeuce]

Another idea from Survival Guns I liked was the way Mel Tappan divided his survival guns into 2 categories, working and defense. I try to apply those same divisions to all my survival preparations. The way I look at this is that you'd need to cover both areas to survive. You'll definitely need to eat no matter what happens, so food and supplies to produce food would be essential. You might not need the guns, with a lot of luck and the right conditions, but I wouldn't want to bet my life on being lucky like that. If you're in a situation in which you need guns you probably wouldn't survive too long without them. You can survive for weeks without food, but if you're being attacked and don't have guns you probably wouldn't survive weeks.

[J_Smith]

Maybe thats just it......maybe I am an "addict".... ...I can see myself going to meetings for this s##t.............Seriously though. I've also considered the possibility of not only having extra guns "put away" but also what to do if SHTF and a buddy for some screwed up reason doesn't have their s##t.....

[stony man]

Too much is never enough. If you never bought another gun you have a better selection then >85% of the populous. You dont plan on liveing pay check to pay check the rest of your life do you so dont worry about it. You seem to have the minimum and every thing above that is fun stuff. Dont sweat the little stuff. Spend the next batch of mad money on logistical stuff then get some more toys that go bang after you have taken care of that. He who has the most toys wins. 8^)

------------------
extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice . . . . moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue

Greaseman for President

[RockRanger]

Personally, I think you already have a respectable collection. However, a neat 22 rifle and a shotgun might be interesting in the future. No hurry though as they are not on the ban list "yet".

[RT]

I have been thinning out the arsenal a lot recently and completing my other gear sets. I abandoned the concept of arming a whole crew myself because the people I meet who are on the right sheet of music got the same message from on high and have already gotten decent weapons together. You have to reach a point where you understand the difference between a serious gun nut and a serious survivalist. I still have some guns that I own just because I like them, but I keep that seperate from what is the survival arsenal.

The average survivalist is going to over-do it on weapons in the start and then probably end up thinning them out and getting different gear. We try to emphasize this on savvysurvivor.com, but several upgrades to the site are not up yet and the articles not finished.

Once you have your weapon inventory covered, it is time to look at other gear and capabilities. How good is your medical kit? Night vision? and of course the one thing that so many patriot groups lack - good commo.

I would say that maybe a third of the patriot/survivalists have this together. The rest are too heavy on the shoot, and too light on the move and communicate. I hate to admit it, but I have been in that boat too. I was (and still am) too heavy on firepower and lighter than I want to be on commo and transport. I only recently got a satisfactory night vision package together and will probably be upgrading that.

For 2001:
-Obtained Gen2 night vision gear (scope and goggles)
-Started tactical commo upgrades
-Stabilized and reduced the size of my arsenal through sales, barter and burying. At the same time, I did some quality upgrades and standardization. This means that for every gun I get, I am getting rid of one other to keep the count and storage space about the same. Some of the reduction is accomplished by burying or stashing excess.
-Upgraded all of my body armor to level II or better.

For 2002 my goals are:
Continue tactical commo upgrades
Increace ammo stockpile by 50%
Replace or repair my sick FAL.
Obtain a long range rifle.
Get rid of a few other guns I have on hand and standardize my shotguns.
Upgrade my medical package to a serious backpack field medkit and Blackhawk medic vest.

If the opportunity presents itself I will:
-Upgrade to at least one Gen3 night vision device (goggles preferred)
-Obtain an off road vehicle
-Upgrade my sleeping bag system to the new Goretex set.

RT -

I am in the same boat - "growing" out of the "arm a platoon" phase and deepening the quality and breadth of gear - it would be really great to have 1/2 of the $ I have wasted in learning what not to buy so I could do it right!!!!

Focusing on medical (past robust first aid kits I have assembled) and then on commo (bet the Motorola talk abouts will be a bit limited in their performance!)

Hopefully the newbie that started this thread will read and learn so he doesn't cry multiple times!!!!

[medicmike]

I have always thought of firearms to be like golf clubs. Get what you need to be mission specific. Sounds like you have that covered. I have way more than myself and family needs but that also gives me the ability to arm othere if it becomes nessasary. Plus the guns are appriciating faster than my 401k ever thought of so I approach it as an investment (at least that's the excuse I used with the wife )

[J_Smith]

In some respects I am a newbie - I've been thinking this way since I was fourteen - 8 years ago?......But military life,etc have slowed down progress at times as I try to prioritize. I have a good medical kit but my gear is beyond my training - need to get hands-on training - how do you do surgery if the only reference you have is a book?

I also want to stay mobile while being prepared. I never had an "arm a platoon" mindset but it would be safe to say I had an "arm a squad" mindset. Like others, I've learned that most people are on the right sheet of music or they're worthless.......so much for arming a squad. A good idea would be to stash "extra" guns away. Esp. those bought through private parties (no paper trail). Commo for me is non-existent so I need to deal with that aspect of things. I have no use for body armor unless I can get modern Level III/IV like the new US "Interceptor" vest. I don't own a Kevlar helmet - never will. Night Vision would be nice but so long as its passive Gen II, III, or IV. IR is good in really dark areas but not if the bad guys have NOD's. At one point I started to stockpile food and water, but going active duty tends to thwart plans like that.

One of my big goals this year is to upgrade all the firearms that I am definitely keeping. Also to stock up more on ammo. The uncertainty of future gun laws is a big thing in the back of my mind. I've also been debating on a long range rifle beyond what an FAL will offer. If so, should I get a Remington 700 PSS in .308, or bypass that and go for a true long range caliber such as .300 WIN MAG or .338 Lapau? This wouldn't be as a primary weapon - just another usefull tool for lifes uncertaintys. I have a Ruger 10/22 but am considering a Ruger MKII pistol for cheap plinking, hunting, etc. As for the high dollar military style rifles - I'm pretty much good for life.

Again, after I ETS I need to consider a full-time civilian job (looking at LEO) or active Guard, buying a house and land at some point, and getting another truck (I'm overseas).

Thanks agan for all the input..Any other advice is always appreciated.

[mosquito creek patriot]

If you decide you MUST have a L Range bolt rifle, there are definately things to consider. You might also read the LR Rifle forum on the AW for ideas.

Are you going to reload your own ammo??
If you want to shoot std ball ammo when your match ammo runs out better stick with .308.

I had a Rem in .308 and thought the caliber was rather limiting. .308 would perform even better with heavier bullets of 180 & 190 grn, but the .308 cartridge would barley push them to proper velocities. Also the Rem in .308 uses a short action. This makes for a stronger receiver, but the longer/heavier bulleted cartridges would not fit in the mag well.

If I ever decided to get back into the bolt game on a budget, I would go with the .300 Win mag or new Ultra Mag.

I don't know if the Rem can be had in .338 Lapua, but I don't think so. Been out of the bolt study for awhile.
I'd love to have a bolt rifle in .338 L, but from what I've seen if you want to find a rifle to shoot .338 L, better figure on $ 4,000.00 +.

MCP

[This message has been edited by mosquito creek patriot (edited 26 December 2001).]

[FourDeuce]

J_Smith, I didn't notice what your MOS was, but one thing you might want to try to do is get all the training you can while you're on active duty. I first got into survivalism around the time I went on active duty, so I kept that thought in mind almost the entire time I was in. There are all kinds of training assets you can take advantage of on active duty that you won't be able to have access to after you're out. Sometimes it's easy to forget that the majority of civilians have no experience or training in Infantry stuff. I spent most of my time in the Army in the Infantry, which in most cases doesn't have any applications for the civilian world, but for a survivalist much of that Infantry stuff would be very useful.

[KDX'N]

Hi guy's !!, this is my first post here at AW, I have been reading alot of the posts and decided to join up, Thanks for letting another gun and gear groupie sign up. I wonder about this all the time, why, I really dont know, I guess I watch to many Rambo reruns. One thing that I think about is that do you really need a semi-auto rifle. I guess if you were in some sort of a battle or war it would be better to have, but in a survival type situation would you want to have a heavy or heavier gun than a bolt type rifle (only a question for thought, not a flame against semi's). and for a rimfire rifle I have a 1022 (who dosnt) but then again it does weight a lot for what it is indended for, so would a 22LR pistol be better for small game, (like a ruger semi-auto or the like) my father has said that he and his friends have taken many deer with a 22LR so if a 1022 was the only gun you had you could make due with it, but if I had to carry a long gun I think I would want something larger and then maybe a 22LR handgun for taking small game or dare I say it, sniping

[mosquito creek patriot]

KDX'N, welcome to the AW Forums.
Most discussions here on the T&S forum seem to cover situations where combat or small scale fighting may be involved.

As for hunting (even in a survival situation), you are best to have a couple of hunters with a .22 and 2 or 3 guards with a centerfire semi-auto rifle. Your first time out with just a .22 may be your last if you come up against a band of roving looters out to take what they can.

If in a true survival situation where you have to worry about other people hearing your shots, you will probably do more trapping, etc anyway.

I do military training and field survival, but never plan on having to actually shoot game if at all possible.

MCP