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  #1  
Old August 4th, 2011, 08:01 AM
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Noland Noland is offline
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Default RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

Chiappa firearms, and will soon include an RFID tag in every new gun that they build.


http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...aluminum-foil/


These guys will instantly become known as the "tracking chip" makers. They should have known better.

How hard can it be to use a different method of inventory control in their plants?

Stupid is as stupid does.
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Last edited by Noland; August 4th, 2011 at 08:04 AM.
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  #2  
Old August 4th, 2011, 08:35 AM
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Icon47 Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

Agreed, this is going to hurt sales. This economy ought to make this industry more competitive than ever. Instead, Chiappa has chosen to become quisling instead of more profitable.

They should modify this plan so that the chip maybe easily removed after sale. The problem is that some Lib Lawmaker will then undoubtably make it illegal to remove the chip.

http://www.chiappafirearms.com/products
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  #3  
Old August 4th, 2011, 09:38 AM
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Icon26 Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

you all haven't considered that this is known by the manufacturer but i am sure they have thought of it.
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  #4  
Old August 4th, 2011, 09:41 AM
sixboysdad sixboysdad is offline
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

Seems to me that if you WANTED to choose a particular demographic to be more incensed by this, you couldn't do it.

Seriously? You wanna implant tracking chips in FIREARMS? This decision, if it is actually implemented, could singlehandedly sink the company.
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  #5  
Old August 4th, 2011, 11:48 AM
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

I've noticed that the few newer Glocks I've seen have a smooth square spot on the bottom of the trigger guard that I can't see as being part of the manufacturing process-older models do not have this....I may be a bit paranoid but this looks like a computer chip has been added after the frame was made. Anyone else seen one of these?
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  #6  
Old August 4th, 2011, 03:22 PM
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Icon26 Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

it wouldn't surprise me @ all pbm.
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  #7  
Old August 4th, 2011, 03:46 PM
BruceNRALife BruceNRALife is offline
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paintballmagnet View Post
I've noticed that the few newer Glocks I've seen have a smooth square spot on the bottom of the trigger guard that I can't see as being part of the manufacturing process-older models do not have this....I may be a bit paranoid but this looks like a computer chip has been added after the frame was made. Anyone else seen one of these?
No, not on mine. They probably just added one to yours at the request of the CIA.
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  #8  
Old August 4th, 2011, 08:18 PM
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

You Guys are blowing this WAYYYYYYY outta proportion.

They will only be tracking those firearms that bad guys buy. .
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  #9  
Old August 4th, 2011, 08:54 PM
MikeG MikeG is offline
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

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Originally Posted by Bagboy View Post
You Guys are blowing this WAYYYYYYY outta proportion.

They will only be tracking those firearms that bad guys buy. .
And that the BATFE sends to the Cartels in Mexico.
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  #10  
Old August 5th, 2011, 12:05 AM
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

I actually emailed the president of this company last night, got a reply today. He tried to pass it off as an ill timed joke that did not come out as was planned.
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  #11  
Old August 7th, 2011, 12:12 AM
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

Definitely NOT the first company to do this, just the first in the USA. I bought an HK45 a while back and the manual talked about a chip. It was to be molded in under the replaceable backstraps. My gun had the location, but not the chip. Don't have the gun anymore so I cant take a pic. It may be an EU thing or a LEO/DoD thing for inventory control. Don't like it one bit in a civie gun. The good news is that the chips are still pretty fragile and making one inoperable should be quick and safe for the rest of the gun.
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  #12  
Old August 7th, 2011, 11:34 AM
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

All the more reason to not buy plastic guns.
Go ahead and "imbed" the stupid chip in my all-steel 1911.
Or my Makarov....or my....well, you get the point.
Then they're gonna need an RFID Reader with a really strong transmitter.




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  #13  
Old August 8th, 2011, 08:43 AM
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConMan View Post
All the more reason to not buy plastic guns.
Go ahead and "imbed" the stupid chip in my all-steel 1911.
Or my Makarov....or my....well, you get the point.
Then they're gonna need an RFID Reader with a really strong transmitter.




< 1200 >
Don't get all excited about steel or metal framed guns. The Chiappa POS I'd a metal frame. Just have to mill a location into the metal and encapsulate the RFID chip in place like they are doing. At this stage RFID chips aren't resilient enough to withstand the 400F + temps required to melt the plastics going into the molds. Apologies if my previous post made it sound like HK was going to ovremold the chip into the base material of the frame. It had a molded in divet for the chip to be glued into.

I agree with your sentiment though. I really don't care about company X's inventory controls. I don't want any effing chips in my guns PERIOD.
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Old August 8th, 2011, 11:26 AM
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Icon26 Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

still more rfid love, er hate.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/tech...app-store.html
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  #15  
Old August 8th, 2011, 11:43 AM
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Icon44 Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAZ View Post
Don't get all excited about steel or metal framed guns. The Chiappa POS I'd a metal frame. Just have to mill a location into the metal and encapsulate the RFID chip in place like they are doing.
Yeah, but they'd have to place the chip on the outside of a metal gun, as the RFID signal can't penetrate metal.
It would be much easier to actually "encapsulate" the chip inside the plastic, but impossible in metal.
So a metal gun = chip just sticks on outside where it can be peeled or cut off, where a plastic gun = possibly molded into the frame somewhere where removal destroys the frame.
This has been discussed many times on other boards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAZ View Post
I agree with your sentiment though. I really don't care about company X's inventory controls. I don't want any effing chips in my guns PERIOD.
If, and I do mean IF it were about "inventory control", the chips could simply be attached to the trigger guards during assembly and not removed by anyone other than the original purchaser.
And it seems like that approach would be much simpler and less expensive on the manufacturing end as well.
Therefore, they achieve their so-called "inventory control" without stirring up the controversy.
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  #16  
Old August 8th, 2011, 08:07 PM
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ConMan View Post
Yeah, but they'd have to place the chip on the outside of a metal gun, as the RFID signal can't penetrate metal.
It would be much easier to actually "encapsulate" the chip inside the plastic, but impossible in metal.
So a metal gun = chip just sticks on outside where it can be peeled or cut off, where a plastic gun = possibly molded into the frame somewhere where removal destroys the frame.
This has been discussed many times on other boards.
Nothing is impossible. No need to penetrate anything. Small counter bore that holds the chip and then pour in hot glue or epoxy. Been there done that almost got the patent. Works just hunky dorky. Insert molding into a plastic frame is not yet doable. Technology has come a long way since I've worked in the field, but the chips are just not resilient to survive the high temperatures And pressures required for melting and filling the frame molds. Those plastics melt anywhere between 300-500 F depending on the resin and fill at 50-100psi the chips just can't stand that kind of heat and pressure. Not yet anyway, and if they can they would not be very cost effective.


Quote:
If, and I do mean IF it were about "inventory control", the chips could simply be attached to the trigger guards during assembly and not removed by anyone other than the original purchaser.
And it seems like that approach would be much simpler and less expensive on the manufacturing end as well.
Therefore, they achieve their so-called "inventory control" without stirring up the controversy.
They aren't only talking about inventory controls at the manufacturing location. They are also talking about inventory controls at the end users like government entities. Lots of countries don't let their cops or military keep their guns after hours or when they aren't needed directly. Much easier for them to simply pass the gun over a scanner and know exactly who has what weapon and who hasn't checked it back in after their shift was done. Also easy to do inventory at say a large armory. No more missing AK's from armory a cause someone didn't inventory them correctly.

There are good uses for the things, especially for large agencies or entities, but not in the civilian market.
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  #17  
Old August 10th, 2011, 08:08 AM
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TAZ View Post
.....Insert molding into a plastic frame is not yet doable. Technology has come a long way since I've worked in the field, but the chips are just not resilient to survive the high temperatures And pressures required for melting and filling the frame molds. Those plastics melt anywhere between 300-500 F depending on the resin and fill at 50-100psi the chips just can't stand that kind of heat and pressure. Not yet anyway, and if they can they would not be very cost effective.
I could be totally wrong on this, but this company produces RFID tags that seem to meet the necessary criteria.......http://www.avantetech.com/products/k...perature-rfid/......they claim up to 300C max.....and mold-able....
And if I'm not mistaken, a lot of casino chips contain RFID's, and most of those chips are high-pressure molded.
So, if manufacturers aren't doing it presently, they most likely could do it with little effort.
And the tag could me molded into the frame in such a location as to seriously damage or even destroy the frame if removed.
The same could NOT be done with a metal firearm because the RFID won't function if shielded by metal.
So the tag would need to be attached to the outside of the frame to function.
Again, these are my opinions only, as I have little real-world experience with anything I'm talking about here.
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  #18  
Old August 10th, 2011, 11:42 AM
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

Myth Busters wasn't allowed to touch the subject of hackability in RFID chips. The Powers-That-Be shut that down real fast according to Adam Savage.

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  #19  
Old August 10th, 2011, 01:37 PM
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Icon41 Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

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Myth Busters wasn't allowed to touch the subject of hackability in RFID chips. The Powers-That-Be shut that down real fast according to Adam Savage.

Why bother hacking it unless maybe one would want to take a stolen gun and change things around a bit to make it look like it was theirs.

I'm thinking a strong enough magnet would mess things up.
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  #20  
Old August 10th, 2011, 02:48 PM
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Default Re: RFID chips. Worst marketing decision in gun history.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bagboy View Post
Why bother hacking it unless maybe one would want to take a stolen gun and change things around a bit to make it look like it was theirs.

I'm thinking a strong enough magnet would mess things up.
No, the permanently imprinted serial number would still be on the surface of the gun.
And I have no idea what a strong magnet would do to them.
I'm just guessing, but if the tags are used to identify firearms, hackers could possibly alter the tag so the gun now ID's itself as a Jimmy Buffet CD....or a cell phone....or any other product with an RFID tag.
I mean, unless the hacking in question enabled the hacker to alter the ID returned by the tag then I'd think the hacking would be worthless.
But again, I am just guessing.
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