Well, It's Starting Again

[CMV]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

PBM - I don't use midway for bullets - they're kind of high and charge shipping too. Maybe not compared to the LGS, but there are others out there with better prices. I needed to restock projectiles & this is what I went with:

Graf's
.223 Hornady 55gr soft point. $170/2k
.223 Hornady 55 gr Z-Max. $66/500

Montana Gold
9mm 115 gr CMJ. $330/4k
357 SIG 124 gr FMJ. $124/1k

RMR
.380 95 gr Speer TMJ (pulled) $128/2k
.40 165 gr Speer FMJ (pulled) $97/1k

TJ Conevera
.45ACP 230 gr Berry's plated $128/1k

Delta Precision had most things I wanted on backorder & I don't know how long their waitlist is or else a lot of this would have come from them - esp the .45 ACP.

Powder (surplus) & Primers (CCI) came from HiTech ammo. Shipping was nominal & they cover HAZMAT with either 32 lbs of powder or 30k primers. They have the best prices on primers I've seen when you figure in the low shipping - I think it's just the actual UPS shipping fee with no markup. They have the WC844 for $85/8lb so $320 of powder - enough to load about 9k .223 - covers the HAZMAT on whatever primers you get at the same time too. 30k primers was too much for me at once along with everything else I needed.

If you don't mind pulled bullets, check out http://www.rmrbullets.com The inventory changes pretty fast so check them out every few days if you're not in a hurry. They have new stuff too but often it's plated & no better than other places that sell Berry's or X-treme. But you can get some smoking deals on pulled bullets from them in pistol calibers.

I left Widener's off but they're a good resource too. I try to order from them because they're close enough to me that standard shipping gets here overnight and the shipping fee is fair (but not included like just about everyone above). Out of a lot of stuff when I checked, but they often have good deals under the bulk rifle or bulk pistol bullets sections.

A lot of people like Powder Valley too. I think their prices are good, but shipping fees are on the high side.

Lastly is Cabela's. Yeah, they are way up there but there is a way to get great deals from them. Combining the Cabela's Club coupon with what they have on sale and using any rewards points (you get a lot if you use their credit card), you can get stuff really cheap sometimes. Like right now they have Berry's on sale. The current coupon is $20 off $150 or $50 off $500. Also running a $2 shipping special now. The sale plus the coupon would make Berry's bullets cheaper at Cabela's than at TJ Conevera's right now & TJ's is typically on of the cheapest place for Berry's.

[CMV]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

Well, Bill, I suggest you don't buy anything then. Be smarter than the rest of us and get all your stuff in January when that big glut (must have missed the last one) happens again.

All precious metals are tied to the world economy, not just silver. Individual hoarding/prepping/whatever you want to call it isn't driving the price up. When currencies decline, metals rise. When currencies rise, metals fall. When large world economies are unstable, stagnant, or shrinking metals rise, when they are stable and growing, metals fall.

I haven't bought metals in years. Doesn't make sense right now & hasn't (to me) since 2007. The whole buy low/sell high thing.

That's different than buying firearms or ammo or loading components. Those are driven purely by supply & demand. In 2008 we saw the supply shrink and the demand rise which either caused general unavailability or sky high prices. Nothing wrong with anticipating the same conditions to happen again and being prepared. No matter what happens, I'll still be shooting this time next year and this time 4 years from now. If there isn't a round of ammo an ounce of powder or a single primer available, I'll still be shooting. If all these things are plentiful, I'll still be shooting. I doubt the prices are going to go down - best case they'll stay the same.

I shot from my stash in 2008 and forward. It wasn't until 2011-2012 that I started replacing what I'd used because prices were so high. Even when they started to come back down, they're still much, much higher than what I paid to stash this stuff in 2001-2003. If you believe the days of $100/case 9mm, $35 5.56mm SA battlepacks, $400 AR-15s, & $79 SKS's are coming back that's your choice. For those of us who don't think we'll see that again (and I really hope we do!) it makes sense to "lock-in" today's prices as much as practical. I can't reload today for the cost of what I was buying loaded commercial/surplus ammo for 10 years ago. I'm around 15.5¢ per round for .223 right now. $155/case wasn't uncommon 10 yrs ago.

If I could afford to buy larger quantities than I am now, I would as I don't predict the prices to go lower.

[billt]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

Well, Bill, I suggest you don't buy anything then. Be smarter than the rest of us and get all your stuff in January when that big glut (must have missed the last one) happens again.

I don't know where you live or shop, but come on, get serious. In the last 6 months I've purchased 9 MM from both Cabela's as well as Wal-Mart for under $10 a box. (Brass cased boxer primed). .45 ACP for $14.99. Wideners has 1,200 round cases of IMI M-193 Ball for $318.00 a case DELIVERED. It's been that way for well over a year and a half.

Now the "preppers" will run out and cause yet another "shortage". This reminds me of the big "primer shortage" in 94. All of these clowns ran out and bought every primer in sight, because they all thought they were going to introduce primers that would "go dead" in 2 years. This in spite of Federal, Winchester, and Remington making public service announcements in every gun magazine you could find, telling people they could not make primers like that if they wanted to. No matter, they stripped the shelves bare. I sincerely doubt anyone has gotten wiser in the last 18 years.

[CMV]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

It hasn't been that way for 1.5 years yet, but availability has improved and reduced prices - the supply & demand thing. I'm the one who posted the Widener's deal in the ammo section & it wasn't that long ago. They didn't have it for a very long time before I noticed it unless I just missed it.

But you're betting that downward movement on prices will continue and a lot of us are betting it will not.

I still have 9mm I bought at Academy in Nashville for $3.99/box. $80/case + tax so I don't think $10 is "good" for 9mm. CCI Blazer, but still, at $4 a box I bought a lot of it. In 8 years it has more than doubled in price

This was in 2004 or 2005 - we moved in fall 2005 so it was earlier than that.

I have what's left of a small (500) case of XM193. I was buying them for $99 shipped at the same time. So while I bought a case of the IMI M193, it's still nowhere near the 19.8¢ we were paying for XM193 - which was typically higher than other surplus. The stuff from Widener's does not include shipping - mine was $330 with shipping so 27.5¢ per round. Almost 40% higher. There's some PPU & PMC floating around too for around $320/1k shipped as well. BTW - Widener's is sold out of the IMI M193 but they still have M855.

You can see how much raw components cost now vs before 2008. Like I said before, if you think that's going to change, hold off buying. If you think it's going to remain the same or go higher, now is the time to buy. I don't see global economies or our political climate changing in any way in the near future to make ammunition or firearms less expensive to manufacture and distribute.

Whether the speculation may or may not cause shortages isn't the issue. The reasons why people think things will become scarce aren't the issue either. The issue is do you believe certain things will become scare or overly expensive in the near future. Apparently you do not because you can buy a case of ammo that was $200 several years ago, $400 a few years ago, for $300 today. And even while many things are sold out or on backorder you believe the spigot has already opened back up.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong. I am saying over the next few years don't blame the people who thought this would happen and bought stuff as the reason you can't if that turns out to be the case.

Anyway, I'm mostly talking about consumables - something I'm going to use and replace anyway. So If I stock up right now, I'm covered for any temporary shortages or price hikes. If prices go up, I saved some money. If prices go down, I still break even considering I was buying powder 1 lb at a time, primers 1k at a time, & projectiles 500-1000 at a time. So the bulk purchases will have me coming out ahead for stuff I'd have eventually bought anyway even if there is a reduction in price (which I don't believe will happen).

If I found toilet paper that I like for sale for 25¢ a roll, I'd buy as much as I could store because I'm going to use it eventually. If I thought there was a good chance that political change would make it much more difficult to cut down trees or there was a global demand for wood causing the prices to go higher, I might buy as much as I could afford right now at the best prices I can find because I don't want to be wiping my butt with leaves. Same thought process.

[paintballmagnet]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

One things for sure, other than prices, shortages have crimped my shooting in the past. I refuse to shoot waht I can't replace as I go. Speaking of cost, my .308 loads ran me an average of .050 each for the last eight or nine hundred I put together. This factored in having to buy some 1x brass, good soft point bullets, IMR powder, Federal GM primers. I've got ahold of the last I'm gonna do, 300 WW brass and enough 4064, primers, Hornady SST bullets to finish. Other than some 9mm HP's I'll be done loading, intend on selling all my loading equipment.

[billt]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

No one is saying prices from 8 years ago will return. What I am saying is that it's much better NOW than it was when Hussein was coronated. There were WASR 10 AK's selling for $850.00 during the Winter of 2009. People panicked and thought the world was coming to an end.

It was much the same after the Assault Weapons Ban was passed in 1994. You had idiots lining up to pay $110.00 each for Hi-Cap Glock mags, and thousands for "pre ban" AR-15's. Now both are everywhere, and have been for years. The bottom line is people over react, and it winds up costing everyone money because of it.

[CMV]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

Why's that? Just don't like it anymore?

Fun rainy day project for me A little here & there & the ammo starts piling up! Then I go the the range & it dwindles down, but it's a fun part of shooting that I wish I'd have gotten into earlier.

Around here used reloading stuff is in demand. It goes on craigslist pretty quick - if some do-gooder doesn't flag it first.

[billt]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

Around here used reloading stuff is in demand. It goes on craigslist pretty quick - if some do-gooder doesn't flag it first.

Is selling reloading equipment banned on Craigs List?

[CMV]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

I see your point Bill. Those guys were hedging that the AWB would stay around & not sunset. It could have easily gone the other way.

Look at what a $450 M16 would cost you to buy today - $15k+ due to the change in law in '86. People would have been viewed as idiots for paying $1500 for them in '86 but those same idiots are geniuses today.

What if the AWB never went away? How much would that Glock mag be worth today?

I can't predict the future - wish I could so I'd know what tomorrow's powerball numbers will be! I'm no Obama fan and think he's a horrible leader, but he is a good politician. He's left guns alone, but after November when he has nothing to lose I think we'll see him get aggressive. I don't think anything that comes from this Republican 3-ring circus going on right now is going to beat him and will only make sitting republicans lose their seats. Look at the FOPA from 1986 - with a Republican president and house - senate was majority democrat - and how that managed to get turned around to make things worse overall. I really don't like where things may be headed in several months and the time that follows.

In 1994 with a democrat president and majority in the house & senate we got the Brady bill & AWB. They felt pretty sure of themselves after Clinton's 2nd term and went after guns aggressively. Resulted in lots of them getting the boot the next month, but I can see history repeating itself with this bunch.

It wouldn't take much. No importation of ammunition. No importation of firearms of any kind. Tax on ammunition. Tax on firearms. Red tape nightmare - imagine the form-4 process for any firearm. Serialized bullets. Lots of things they could do & probably get by with to make it very difficult to enjoy the shooting sports. Any one of those would have a very negative effect on prices and availability.

[CMV]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

Is selling reloading equipment banned on Craigs List?

As far as I know it is not. Firearms & ammo are banned, but some do-gooder always seems to flag other stuff that is related but not specifically banned.

I had a WTB 1x fired brass ad that I reposted several times & it kept getting flagged. I went as far as to add a disclaimer that what I was after was not loaded or live ammunition, completely benign & harmless, within the rules, etc, & it still got flagged.

I'm not sure exactly how the process works, but no live person reviews it. If a posting gets X number of flags, it gets removed. If X flags all come from the same IP address I don't know if that will still get it pulled, but I've had stuff pulled pretty quick.

My last motorcycle ad got flagged a bunch of times too. Maybe someone thought it was a scam even though I was local and had contact info posted. I think there are self-appointed "craigslist police" that have nothing better to do than surf CL and flag stuff they don't like.

[billt]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

I don't play a value game with things made valuable because of a law. Laws can change. We saw it with the AWB. I'm not saying you'll be seeing machine guns for sale in hardware stores anytime soon. With that said there is no way I would pay $15K for a gun because of a $35.00 trigger sear. If it was a rare engraved Colt, or Winchester, then perhaps. It's rarity will stay for certain. But not because a government won't "let you" buy it. Red tape isn't worth money. At least not to me.

[Hawk45]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

While I distrust our government, I REALLY do NOT TRUST the UN. Thing is this bunch in DC LOVES the UN and everything it wants. Prime example is the UN treaty Obamanation and Hitlery BOTH want to sign and ram down our throats.

It is a simple thing that completely does away with our 2nd admendment rights and totally bans private gun ownership.

Will it ever go thru? I have NO idea, but I want to be ready in case I need to fight to keep mine. I will not last long, but I will take time to strongly 'discuss' it with whoever is stupid enough to try and take them away from me.

[jefferson101]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm putting everything that I can afford away. Primers, powder, bullets, and whatever. Loaded ammo when I don't have something else in mind.

A pound of rifle powder will load about 160 rounds, give or take. So if I buy another thousand bullets, and another thousand primers, I need about 6 pounds of powder. Most of what I'm loading for is 4064, 4895, or some Varget for the .308, but I'd rather use 4064, if I have enough of it.

I can get good loads for anything out of 4064, but some of my stuff shoots better with 4895, notable the K31's and the 54r. I can load most all of my 7.62x51 with almost anything, but I'd prefer to have something that I've become familiar with.



Just buy more. I'll leave pistol powder, primers, and bullets to my heirs. Rifle ammo, though? I still need more for that stuff. Lots more!

If things get rough, the Rifle stuff is going to be a lot more useful than the pistol stuff is.

'nough said on that one.

[Iowegan]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

Pretty much agree with most posted on this.

Yep, a lot of it is fear based, speculation and, other issues.

Been said many times, buy with as little paper trail as you can, and if paper is involved, the best color is green.

[Black Pete]

Re: Well, It's Starting Again

Went to Georga Arms and asked about a 70 gr SP that they used to make...it was very accurate out of my national match AR.....they can't seem to build many types of ammo due to no components