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  • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

    Here are some more sabot/slug and loading concepts.

    First is Alcan 2.75" paper case with Dixie 600gr slug,
    with the side of the case crimped into the relief/lube
    groove of the Dixie slug.The groove in the Dixie isn't
    quite as deep as the groove in the Fosbury slug shown
    in earlier post, but still seems to crimp fairly tight.



    Next are various slugs in 12ga REM sabots that take
    57 cal slugs and bullets.Those sabots are from the REM
    Accutip loadings. In picture you can see one of the
    REM 385gr jkt bullets they use. Also is sabot
    with 20ga cast Lyman. On right sabot with hardcast 585 cal
    640gr lead bullet, the ones I use in my 585HE wildcat
    case. I sized it down a little, perfect fit.
    Also the .575 cal Dixie Gunworks lead slugs will do.

    Also shown is a long pointed 55 Boys bullet in one,
    fairly tight fit.We cut back .3" of bullet off so it
    fit for length in sabot and is 750gr.



    Third are 3.5" brass and plastic with the REM sabot and
    the 750gr pointed slugs in them.In all the sabot work we
    and others have done, trying to get accuracy and high
    speeds together, maybe there is such a thing as too
    much plastic. IE, sabots too thick on the sides if doing
    50cal or smaller in 12ga sabots, for heavier slugs
    at high speeds. Thinner sides may discard more evenly at
    the greater pressures and violence of high speeds.
    Thin sides may have less give so that sabot grips slug
    better to impart spin in rifled use. Example in
    smoothbore use is the USS slugs, where the brass slug
    is .629" with thin discarding petals that have proven to
    be very accurate. And with both reasonable priced sabot
    offerings the last few years being undersize, accuracy
    problems, etc, maybe time to try something else.

    Got to find whole bunch of these sabots. Are these pictured
    12ga REMs the only 58cal ones around? I can't find others,
    and maybe we can find where these are made. As I have
    huge numbers of the 585 slugs, which by the way I think
    is best hunting combination, without extremely heavy slugs
    which suffer for the speeds needed for longer range use.
    It is hard lead, good for big game.And my guy can make many,
    many more if needed whether for 585HE rifles
    or in sabots if we can find some.ED

    Ed Hubel

    Comment


    • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

      Some more sabot and slug ideas, discarding types
      and locked on base types.

      First picture of 20ga Buckhamer pulled apart. The bunch
      I have were pulled apart, the slug won't lock back in
      tight, into the base.



      Second is various 20ga sabot/slug ideas some using
      buckhammer sabot bases that a bunch of 458 cal lead
      slugs and jackted slugs I have, lock into real tight.
      The 458 lead ones are 400gr, jkt are 350gr.

      And I got some empty SPW 20 gauge sabots, and 20ga
      Buckhammer slugs lock into them real tight.I have
      many of these slugs. These slugs are 440gr.

      Also is 3" 20ga FED factory sabot shell and one of
      discarding sabots out of the case. Also a 3.5" 20ga
      Hastings 3.5" load with black locked on base sabot,
      and sabots out of the case and couple 20 brass
      3.5" RMC cases.



      Next is variety of 12ga sabots with 50cal slugs
      in them.2 white and the pink sabot are FED, The black
      is Hornady, With a 50cal long bullet .
      The grey, is a BPI with .504" cast 440gr slug.
      I wish the BPI was full size like the others
      and fit rifled barrels tight for accuracy.........



      Last 12ga SPWs from Slug-R-US(30 cents ea) with various
      50 cal slugs locked in tight, and shown with one out of
      a factory load, the dark colored one. 50cal 385gr
      Great Plains ML slugs lock in perfect for a lighter
      loading. Other ML slugs will do and a few of
      the Dixie Gunworks 50cal slugs lock in also...Ed


      Ed Hubel

      Comment


      • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

        Some more slug setups and ideas.

        First is USS brand sabot that European cartridge has, without
        locked base, a discarding 12ga sabot, with .629" brass slug.
        It is as accurate in rifled barrel as its locked on base
        counterpart, in smooth barrels. Up to 750 gr brass slug
        I tested. 3 shots in an inch, 30yds.
        Shown with BPI powder cup seals.





        2nd is the USS slugs with locked on base for comparison.
        With corresponding length cases they were designed for.





        3rd are heavy solid tungsten slugs, the smaller .580" cal and
        1200gr, the bigger ones .660" cal and 2200 gr.
        A guy in Southern MI made a few for me to check out. Now these
        too hard to fire fullbore, damage rifling, must be in plastic.
        These are just what the super heavy slug guys might like.





        4th is a 1000gr 58cal tungsten slug in a 12ga REM style
        58cal sabot. Notice how short it is for being super heavy.

        Ed Hubel

        Comment


        • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

          Here is some more older cartridges and ideas.
          First is a fellows collection of older brass cases.
          They look like Berdan primed. Run from
          36ga to 12ga, big one on right is flare cartridge.



          Second is a paper case clad with
          thin brass nearly to the top.



          Third is picture of paper case crimped into
          the side of a slug with shallow grooves.I did one
          pictured above with a Dixie slug.



          Some experimenting with 12ga discarding style sabot idea
          that takes 58cal slugs/bullets.I pictured them above.
          A fullbore,bore fitting sabot that takes 575-580 cal
          slugs or bullets, cast or jacketed.

          For reloaders to use, and not undersize ones
          that have been available, for reloading guys. That
          the guys haven't been able to get speed and accuracy
          at the same time. These sabots are super accurate in
          most tests, in factory Remington sabot loads. Much
          more so than the undersize sabots reloaders have
          had to work with.

          I tested with the 440 gr .575cal hollowbase
          Dixie Gunworks # BA-1103 lead slug and 3 shots from
          heavy long barrel NEF nearly into same hole, at
          30yds. Gun locked down. Going about 2200.
          Our slow powder loads in 3.5" plastic.
          Can be loaded faster.

          No tests at long range, bad eyes/no scope, colder
          than witches ---, and no time.
          I am trying to find who makes these.There are
          about 2000 injection mold companies in US

          Ed Hubel

          Comment


          • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

            Another 12ga sabot idea, first picture is a 570 gr USS slug,
            with Powder Cup seal from BPI, locked to USS discarding sabot
            section. This shortens column so that we can get more of the
            slower powders in we use, in shorter 2.75" cases. With slower
            powders, they get to peak pressure a little easier
            so that the cushion usually between seal and sabot/slugs
            isn't needed. This locked on seal will aid in smoothbore
            accuracy and it will work of course in rifled barrels.
            This sabot has a peg on the back that locks it in original
            setup to the green USS cushion base/seal, and we just pried
            it apart and drilled tight hole to match in the Powder Cup
            seal, and forced it on for a locked fit..
            Slug is .629" diameter.



            Next picture is 3 sizes of first USS sabot slugs, with
            the locked on bases which work good with them. Giving
            nearly rifle accurracy in smooth bores.



            Here is old time picture of couple of Rodda 4 bores.
            Man what nice old guns.



            Next picture is a 1.5" Minie ball slug, might work for
            close to a one gauge. It is next to older 37mm case which
            might fire it also. Maybe a way to make a one gauge of
            sorts, if.......I get enough ambition...Ed

            Ed Hubel

            Comment


            • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

              Some more 12ga sabot work. The sabots in first picture are
              like ones we want to get made for reloading.
              They have 440gr Dixie Gunworks muzzleloading minie slug.
              I related earlier that 3 shots with these in heavy rifled
              barrel NEF got them all in nearly the same hole, at 30 yds.
              Also 4 shots same distance, a 3 inch best group, smooth barrel.
              The slight hollow base helps with smooth barrel. The hollow
              base isn't as deep say as a 12ga foster slug.Another one they
              have, a little heavier, with little deeper hollow base should
              make tighter group. Loads in 3.5" plastic going about 2200.



              Second picture shows something new I found out.It shows two
              different wad setups. When I took the REM Accutip loads apart
              I notice they used a thick seal, old style white felt cushion.
              All the tests I read about that factory load, says it is always
              near the top in accuracy. I had used the BPGS and flexseal
              cushion mostly, as it seals real good. But in the smoothbore
              test above the thick seal and felt wad gave the 3" group and
              the other wad setup 5". The smoothbore, which isn't a perfect
              system, for slugs not designed for smooth, worked out to show
              and magnify difference between the two wad setups..

              What first clued me in on this, to make a check, was recent
              weeks research on net,on all sabot patents, where I read that
              sometimes plastic cushions cock a little affecting accuracy.
              That is the plastic cushions with a lot of space in them.
              Where the felt/fiber cushions stay much more stable for a bigger
              percentage of shots.The very accurate Hornady SST sabot has no
              cushion at all between seal and sabot, but a thin rubber cushion
              disc inside their sabot, and the above may be one reason.
              The Federal Fusion sabots and the Federal Expander sabot
              both are accurate--they don't have a wide open plastic cushion.



              Third picture is of a Greener Martini slug gun a guy rigged up
              with a heavy rifled bull barrel in 12ga. Great looking gun.



              Finally thoughts about all of our posts on many forums(110)
              around the net. We are very happy with the response and help
              we get doing this. We feel this thread a positive boon and help
              to shooters interested in big bores, and by venturing into
              the big bore areas will promote more guys getting into shooting,
              reloading, smithing, etc. And a measure of interest are the views.
              All sites including a big picture site, have about 9 million views.
              And also we congratulate the 24hr Campfire Big Bore as being
              being the first with our regular 12ga FH thread to go
              over 200,000 views.Next is the Highroad with nearly 150,000,
              third is the Firingline with nearly 125,000, 4th Accurate
              Reloading 112,000, and 5th WeaponsForum 106,000.ED
              Ed Hubel

              Comment


              • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                Some possibilities with the 12ga sabots we have been
                looking at. We may have possible leads on companies that
                can make sabots, that have most of equipment to do so.
                If they work out ok, the startup cost isn't as
                high as others who have to set up complete machines.
                We are working to line up a dealer who will get good ones
                made, at one of these sabot making companies.WE hope to
                have similiar design as the ones pictured below
                but with slightly thicker base. I've sent these sabots
                with Dixie cast slugs to different companies to show
                what is needed, and what the full size specs should be.
                With Dixie cast in they are similiar to Federal
                Fusion sabots with lead slugs, only our slugs are 58cal.
                We will keep you informed on what happens. At least 5
                58cal slugs that Dixie has, looks maybe to work in these,
                as best I can tell. And there are a few molds for
                58cal cast slugs, by different companies.
                The possibilities are, to reload with decent price slugs
                and simple inexpensive sabot like these, for buck a round.
                40-60 cent slug, 15-20 cent sabot, powder/primer 30 cents.



                Those sabots I pictured above we been testing, had 385gr
                Remington plastic nose bullets. I used some in my
                585HE and I get them to 3900 fps. Just to see how
                fast was possible in the 585. If I shot them in
                my biggest 585, the 585 HSM, they'd go about 4500 or so.
                They are real light compared to 750gr 585 cal bullets.
                Like a varmint round. Do up a coyote fine.All skinned.



                Some neat guns-First is a 20ga smooth bore Beretta style
                break action 20ga. This is one of the greatest style
                break actions there is. Beretta made their trap guns on
                actions like this and great value for no more
                than they cost. This one only 100 bucks.
                We lengthened chamber to 3.5" so it can
                use various 20ga smoothbore slug loads that we are
                working on and testing..The SPW, Hastings, Lightfield
                type 20ga slugs have decent 50yd accuracy in heavier
                smooth barrels.



                Next is couple of older guns I found pictures of,
                a 4bore Hughes and a 600NE Wilke. I like them.
                2nd is special 20ga double that poster Nitro 450 Express
                on the NitroExpress forum had built. Great job
                on nice looking slug gun.Ed




                Ed Hubel

                Comment


                • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                  The sabots we are working with, take at least 15 different
                  58cal cast slugs for good fit, with the OD measurement of
                  sabot at .733" with all of them in. There are 5 Dixie
                  Gunworks MZ slugs, 6 slugs from Lyman moulds I know of.
                  Five slugs from Lee moulds.These are mainly muzzleloading
                  slugs and can be cast varying hardnesses.

                  Examples-58cal (.575"- .578")
                  Lee molds for 500gr, 460 gr, 350gr, etc, slugs
                  Dixie Gunworks slugs of 440gr, 375gr, 490gr, etc, weights.
                  Lyman 530gr, 510 gr, 460gr, 400gr, 315gr, etc.
                  And they are all good slugs at a saving especially
                  when folks cast their own.

                  I'm getting out info on these to see if any reloading
                  suppliers will try to get some made, so we will have a
                  quality, proper OD size sabot, to reload with.



                  From the research on sabot patents and testing by various
                  of our readers, the sabots can't be undersize, or accuracy
                  at high speeds isn't possible. I get questions about how
                  to reload them for accurate fast loads in plastic cases
                  for regular hunting and target use. Have to tell them we need
                  to have proper OD size sabot.. Most want sabot loads and not
                  fullbore cast....Why; they want lighter for less recoil in
                  regular weight guns, they figure smaller slugs cheaper,
                  they won't have leading with sabots if using cast, don't
                  have to lube and don't need gas checks if cast, cast slugs
                  for sabot use cheaper than jacketed. These parameters cover
                  a lot of shotgun only deer hunters trying to afford doing
                  their own loads, trying to be as accurate as expensive
                  factory sabot stuff and hoping the savings will allow much
                  more shooting.In the 1st is 440gr 58cal Dixie, and second,
                  one I like better a 510gr from Lyman mould. Third slug from
                  a Lee 460gr 58cal mould. 4th is various 58cal slug ideas.
                  Behind are Lyman and Lee 58cal molds. Got more coming of
                  different 58cal weights, clear down to 315gr. My casting
                  friend will get them and as soon a we get somebody making
                  the sabot, he can aid the cause by making slugs.
                  Some of the Lyman and Lee slugs are more streamlined than
                  modst big bore rifle bullets as you can see in picture.



                  Here is picture of a nice Armi San Marco 20ga break action
                  we found, that we're testing loads in. I really like
                  the style of this gun. I'm going to have extra barrel setup,
                  an extra heavy 585cal barrel and put my long 585HE in it,
                  to go along the other 585HE single shots 585HEs we have
                  setup on NEFs, and CBCs.



                  Here is a picture of nice Greener Martini 12ga, with new stock,
                  and a heavy rifled bull barrel, a fellow redid.
                  Such great work. And very accurate. All these guns need like
                  all singleshots, including break actions, are heavy barrels
                  and they shoot great and are easy to shoot with the
                  extra weight.

                  Ed Hubel

                  Comment


                  • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                    Here are a couple high speed, stop frame photos, showing how well
                    and even these sabots we want to get made, open up.
                    The petals being thinner with 58 cal bullets or slugs, opens easy.
                    The slots between petals, going into the base aids even opening.
                    We know a couple retailers that are interested in selling these
                    style of sabots, if they round up the money to get the
                    aquipment setup. Shooting supply companies are down some
                    due the economy.





                    Third is the 585 HE project, using a Savage 110-112 bolt action.
                    Shown with barrel threaded and screwing action on.
                    And the action is long enough to make a single stack mag, if we
                    want, that would feed, with a little work, our 585 HE long case.



                    4th & 5th; pictures are of a old time 20 gauge, double slug and shot
                    gun that was priced little less than the big name English ones.
                    It is a Husqvarna double. Nice gun, we'd really have fun with modern
                    20ga slug shooting using this ..Ed



                    Ed Hubel

                    Comment


                    • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                      Some info we have found out about the operation of discarding sabots.
                      In first picture you see thin white line between the strong powder
                      and the sabot. It is the white fiber cushion wad pressed flat. It is
                      shown on the left in second picture. In the picture of it compressed
                      you see it is pushing squarely on the sabot. This is most important
                      wheh the sabot and slug exit barrel to get the slug started as
                      straight as possible for accuracy.

                      Other types of plastic cushions aid in sealing and help get best
                      velocities but the rolls and legs in them can allow them to side shift
                      which can affect how straight the sabot is on exit, thus causing the
                      slug to deviate. The gray sabots we tried had cushion on the bottom
                      of them and inspecting them after firing you could see they were pushed
                      sideway some of the time. That is why we are trying to get tight
                      fitting simple sabots built and recommend using heavy plastic seals
                      with fiber wads to have least deviation and best accuracy.







                      Third picture is our steel block we are using for 2bore
                      with breach hole we got EDM'd into it.



                      Fourth picture is an old time Kynoch round called the
                      "Lethal" and the "destructor".




                      Fith picture is a H&H underlever double 8bore.
                      Nice beautifal old gun.Ed

                      Ed Hubel

                      Comment


                      • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                        I think we found good overall sabot design that will
                        be the easiest to get made, easiest to get seals
                        and whatever wads needed... Keeping design simple.
                        It is same simple design as the ones pictured above
                        but with slightly thicker base.It is fairly compact
                        for more room for our slow powder loads, and when
                        using slower powders, we don't need as much cushioning
                        which makes the room for the powder. Larger charges
                        of slower powder, better velocity with less case
                        expansion, and more reloads possible.

                        We hadn't tested soft lead 58cal slugs in 12ga sabots
                        for penetration until now.. They did very well,
                        two different 440 gr ones, going though 4 inch dried
                        timber, pushing out some wood on the back.
                        Shows they are just starting to expand.Should do great
                        for deer and hogs. Going 2200 in long barrel NEF.
                        Have pictures later. A 58cal slug at good speed is
                        nothing to look down on. Many African hunters liked
                        that caliber in their 577 doubles for big game.
                        Slugs can be loaded faster, cast heavier,
                        and cast harder for any need.And compared to other
                        way of getting slugs out of a shotgun, once
                        we have good fullbore sabots, we save on needing
                        bullet lube, gas checks, cheaper to get, no barrel
                        leading, much better BC in the same weight of slugs
                        compared to short fullbore ones....


                        Here are pictures of molds that can make cast
                        58cal slugs for the 12ga sabot we are working
                        on.There are many makers and brands and styles
                        of molds and weights available.






                        Here is picture of a 10ga wadcup with a 730gr hollowbase
                        lead slug in on the left .In my heavy barrel 10ga smoothbore
                        I got 6" group at 50 yds. If we made hollow in the base
                        bigger it would be more accurate in smooth barrel.
                        The slug is .69cal one,measures .686"(from Lymam mold
                        like in picture), that Dixie Gunworks has. I bumped up the
                        diameter about .015" --wadcup is BPI VP100.




                        Here is picture of a nice 8ga double a fellow has.
                        Great looking gun..Ed

                        Ed Hubel

                        Comment


                        • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                          Working more with 58cal lead slugs in 12ga sabot we want
                          to get built. We shot a few for checking penetration,
                          with 440gr slugs at 2200 plus fps. Shooting into popple.
                          In picture the 6x6 on the left penetrated by harder lead
                          alloy slug, with slug showing very little expansion on
                          exit from the 6x6, On the right, soft pure lead slug through
                          a 4x6 starting to show expansion on exit. These slugs can be
                          gotten or cast your own to about any hardess needed.
                          They can even be heat treated to be as hard as jacketed.
                          I have rounded up 9 different ones very easy, shown in
                          2nd picture and there are more. Ones in picture range
                          from 400gr to 530 gr. There are molds to make them
                          down to 350 gr and less.





                          Here is picture, on left of Accutip sabot we been taking out
                          of loaded rounds and testing 58cal lead slugs with,
                          and right a hard plastic sabot model, we are working on
                          to see how slugs fit and how it looks, and how
                          it compares to the Accutip and other sabots we have
                          here from WIN, REM, FED, Hornady.



                          In picture is a really neat, very strong, 10ga Beretta style
                          gun we got. Its barrel is heavier at the muzzle than most
                          all 10 gauges we've seen except the NEF with bull barrel.
                          Made by Pedretti, has top lever to open, instead bottom
                          lever like Beretta or the Investarm 20ga we showed above.
                          Going to make into switch barrel for 10ga and monoblock one
                          in 585HE later. Have 2 barrels for it. Has nice big pad we put
                          on it and it is weighted to 12 lbs in 10ga..



                          Now for some internal ballistics comparisons.There is formula
                          for figuring appoximate Average Barrel Pressure,

                          You take Muzzle Energy times 12......and divide it by

                          the BORE Area in sq in, times the length of the barrel in inches.

                          Examples- you have a 458 WIN, my 585HE and 12ga 3.5"--
                          all at 5000 Ft Lbs of energy which for 458 be standard load.
                          The 585HE in this mode would be burning close to charcoal.
                          The 12ga 3.5 would be 440gr slug in sabot at 2200 plus.

                          The 458 Ave Barrel Pressure is about 16,000 psi.
                          The 585HE Ave Barrel Pressure is about 8,000 psi.
                          The 3.5 12ga Ave Barrel Pressure about 5,200 psi.

                          The purpose of this-- To show the possibilites of big bores.
                          Ok you can't go much higher with 458WIN, about 80gr of powder

                          But 585HE you can get way over 10,000 ft lbs,with 180gr powder
                          it holds running at 458WIN Ave Barrel pressure.

                          AND 12ga and 3.5" brass case in Savage 210, slow powder loads,
                          heavy barrel, you can get over 10,000 ft lb. with 180gr powder
                          at much less than 458Win Ave Barrel Pressure.
                          Possibilities are really great fun. Ed
                          Ed Hubel

                          Comment


                          • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                            Some 12ga sabot progress. Here is pic of our sabot model, two
                            in front, shown with Accutip sabot behind. They are all holding
                            58cal slugs, showing how tight they fit and conform
                            to the inside of the sabot petals. A decent fit is a help
                            for better accuracy. Hope they get built for us this summer.
                            We are working on it.




                            Second picture is from a fellow who put 58cal cast slugs in a
                            thinwall 20ga shotcup and shot this at 50 yds. This with first
                            load he tried. Great accuracy for so many shots. This shows
                            great possibilities with 58cal slugs, and should even do better
                            in the 12ga sabot like the above we like. I've heard about BP
                            guys who got into 58cal that they get good accuracy.




                            Here is picture of some the grey bls sabots showing the way
                            they have got bent and beat up, and shows what I and many
                            others have found; that plastic cushions can bend and twist
                            and shift, affecting the slug on leaving the barrel, affecting
                            the accuracy.




                            On a future work, I'm doing a Greener Martini in my 585HE long
                            case, Here is picture of a parts action with a stock idea
                            I'm experimenting with. Might use this or regular pistol grip.

                            Ed Hubel

                            Comment


                            • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                              Back after losing time to a lightning fried computer.

                              Test in 3.5" plastic using a few accutip 12ga sabots out of factory loads.
                              The 12ga accutip sabot, hard cast 440gr 58cal minie slug in
                              36" rifled NEF at 2200, and it went through 12 inches of wood like
                              butter. The hole out showed it was starting to expand a little.

                              Test of softer lead 500gr 58cal Minie with deeper hollowbase in accutip
                              in smooth cylinder bore barrel at 2000, and 3 shots in 3" at 30 yds.
                              This was a Lyman 575213 new style minie slug
                              More experimenting can make these work fair in smooth barrels.
                              For best accuracy use a blunt nose heavier 58cal 600gr slug with
                              deepest hollow in the base. The blunt nose would be more front end
                              heavy and a little more accurate from smooth bore..
                              Lee and Lyman have molds like that.Others selling slugs also.

                              I mentioned before about seals/wads must be stable and not crush
                              down off center, or it might affect accuracy. Here is picture of
                              the one piece seal and wad Federal uses in their sabot loads.
                              Notice it doesn't have a lot of space in the cushion part that would
                              allow it to tip or go off center.



                              Here is picture of some 10ga work using expanded 69cal minie and
                              700cal bullets in 10ga wadcup. 69cal hollowbase fairly accurate to
                              50yds in heavy barrel smoothbore.



                              Here is picture of the Savage 110 done in my 585HE. Hollow butt of the
                              stock is weighted, gun handles nice.Ed

                              Ed Hubel

                              Comment


                              • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                                With other scoped NEF Ultra 12ga, 24 inch
                                barrel, shot hard cast, 400 gr 58cal Lyman Minie
                                in Accutip sabot at 75 yds. Hit small paper plate
                                5 for 5. Going 2000fps.

                                Speaking of 585HE above. We have two in falling blocks,
                                10 bolt guns,5 break actions, and other types.
                                A fun cartridge, and now that we are working with
                                58cal slugs in 12ga sabots, 58 cal is where it is at..
                                And now we are getting a run of 585HE cases made.
                                Bertram getting ready to make the last die;
                                done later this month and will be doing cases then.
                                Cases are 3 bucks each, bulk shipping included.
                                He usually charges 5 or more for wildcats, but as
                                I'm furnishing final sizing die, and he will ship
                                by bulk freight saving him handling, and he had
                                a couple tools already to use, he said $3 each, a
                                real good deal..

                                He will ship whole bulk order to me.
                                I will pass them on to everyone buying in first run.
                                I'll will get a bunch also, to load for others,
                                to fill orders, and collectors. Get 50 for 150 bucks,get
                                100 for 300 bucks, 167 cases for 500 bucks.
                                I'm having guys just make out MO to Bertram Bullets
                                and get it to me and I send them on to him.
                                I'll keep track of who gets what and ship cases to
                                the guys helping with first run, no shipping charge.
                                Want to make the run as big as possible. Got
                                money ready to go for over 700.
                                Like to get 3-4 times as many made if possible.
                                Ed Hubel

                                Comment

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