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Our 12Ga From Hell

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  • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

    I have a partial collection of large brass. Some are loaded rounds and some are empty. But until I came to the subject of ***Our 12G FROM HELL*** I thought I had a purty good collection.

    Silly me.

    Not to mention using 50cal BMG OR 20mm brass for reloading. Phenomenal is about the cleanest word I can conjure up.

    And here I thought I was of the gun nut clan.

    Once again...silly me. I stand in awe of the Big Bore Shooters and Reloaders of same.
    Member of American Legion since 2014.
    Picked up New Trick 2 day 3.15.18 w/screen brightness. And yes I do have Ctrl Alt Delete.

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    • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

      Remember Swift 12, from above-Well 2nd picture is penetration tests with
      them. Over 2000 for 320 gr weight in plastic cases..
      3rd picture is an all aluminum version without brass center
      from penetration tests. 198gr at about 2500 in plastic cases.
      Now the locked on bases are not burnt and the reason I understand
      is they use a thin card between seal and powder, up inside the
      seal cup.This info and testing by US-S group in the EU.
      The plastic cup seal out there might benefit from that, like
      card disc inside the cup of the BPGS and similiar seals.Ed




      Ed Hubel

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      • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

        In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that
        gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called
        12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder
        charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to
        about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

        And still had 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.
        And that is with guns with lighter, weaker barrels
        than we have today, so our work is a good extension
        of what the early big bore guys did.

        And then the 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 3rd picture...Ed





        Ed Hubel

        Comment


        • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

          Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the old time pictures,
          above, and the guys really like them. Quite interesting.

          Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and
          with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets
          from 75 yds to over a 150 yds. ...Here is picture from a 1926
          Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.
          Notice the 20bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems
          as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not as strong as 12ga FH ....
          Both Pictures below from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

          2nd picture are saboted slugs, called the SAGA, from Spain,
          next to a Brenekke on the right..AS far as I can find only
          sold so far as loaded rounds. They look great to reload with
          if ever available..

          3rd picture is from my Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.Ed





          Ed Hubel

          Comment


          • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

            You can seee various 8bore, 4bore, etc
            shooting videos on youtube..Ed
            Ed Hubel

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            • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

              Here is picture of an early falling block for big bores
              called the Field I think. Looks like some other
              side levers, looks like lever works forward.

              And speaking of falling blocks next picture is the
              start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step
              up, for my 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8
              bores only wider.

              I am now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed
              out to the two bore size.
              And a square hole for breach block done
              in that hunk of 4130 steel.

              Other experimenting, a while back, when I made
              my 585 Short HE from Gibbs cases, I also made a
              620 Short HE from Nyati case, of the same design,
              IE, head spacing on the mouth and extractor.
              Using 600NE .620" diameter bullet and 2.7" long case.
              Case could be shorter or longer like the 585 one.
              Didn't do much with it as its sides were very straight
              only .010" taper of both sides together. Whereas the
              585 Short HE had .027" total taper both sides. And any
              Nyati brass I got, went to make my 585HE cases..Ed





              Ed Hubel

              Comment


              • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how
                they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in
                speed in older doubles, with just short rifling section at muzzle,
                that didn't have real heavy barrels. Second picture from Greener
                book here, is of older 4 and 8 gauges.

                Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,
                from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged
                to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.
                Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.
                last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.

                Testing factory 20ga Hastings sabot slug 3.5" hotrod loads, and
                reloaded with 20ga SPW identical slugs, 390gr, goes about 2200
                from 30" heavy barrel. Load was 75gr of 4759.
                Factory is about 1900. For regular modern barrels you could
                do with 65 gr and get about 2000.Ed





                Ed Hubel

                Comment


                • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                  Some info about our slower powder reloads in plastic and
                  brass cases with shotgun primers for modern 12ga guns.
                  I now prefer the IMR 4759 over 4227 as we have had
                  some delayed firing problems when the loaded cases get
                  real cold with 4227..And with slower powder loads use
                  magnum primers.

                  A side note,in same vein, you know I now use FED239
                  mag primers in my 8ga and 4ga, but we find they they really
                  solve the real cold gun, ignition problems, in muzzle loaders
                  using black powder substitutes, with shotgun primer
                  inline guns. We tested 50cal and a primer sold especially
                  for ML when fired,no powder, only saw a tip of the flame
                  out the barrel, a FED209 mag about 4" flame, buta Fed 239
                  Mag primer about a foot of flame.

                  Some more info from the old days, here is picture of
                  a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.
                  And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a
                  modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.Ed



                  Ed Hubel

                  Comment


                  • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                    We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s
                    using easy to get components,cheap, without buying
                    loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

                    In 8ga falling block, plastic got 930gr hollowbase
                    slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded
                    base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in
                    picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,
                    About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in
                    the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

                    Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a
                    750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100
                    10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.
                    Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,
                    and a 2cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases
                    and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice
                    down to these slugs.

                    And also the hotrod 20 ga 3.5" Hastings factory loads in
                    a smooth barrel moderate weight 20ga shoots about
                    same accuracy even though they say for rifled, but that
                    SPW slug/wad combo has enough plastic/seal on the back
                    and that it shoots like a Brenekke. The new 28ga Brenekkes
                    out of 28ga NEF modified choke barrel shoots same at 30yds.
                    Scoped guns and good eyes would shrink groups.Ed

                    Ed Hubel

                    Comment


                    • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                      A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.
                      First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.
                      Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.
                      Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the front.
                      Looks like the roll crimp locks against
                      the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a
                      flat meplat slug on the front of the base like
                      the US-S brass slugs fron Greece are on the
                      plastic bases that I have here. They must use a crimping
                      die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought
                      of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess
                      in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to
                      have more room for our slower powders.ED



                      Ed Hubel

                      Comment


                      • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                        Here is picture of 4 long cases of
                        RIP's on the AR forum.
                        Top being a Rocky Mtn Cartridge
                        3.5" turned brass 20ga. In 20ga
                        getting these and lengthening chambers
                        allows use of the 3.5" 20ga plastic also.
                        Some factory guns are 3.5"

                        Next a RMC 3.5" turned brass 12ga.
                        Chambered for these you can use
                        3.5" 12ga plastic also.Some guns are
                        3.5" from the factory.

                        3rd down our 3.85" 12ga FH we made from BMG brass.
                        Bottom a RMC 3.85" turned brass 12ga FH case.




                        Next picture shows one of the old ways they locked slugs
                        into paper cases. Many old slugs had a wide deep groove
                        which made it possible to crimp that way.You can
                        see one of those slugs in the picture.




                        Testing 490gr 12ga full bore Lee style slugs in 3.5"
                        plastic at 2200. Works in the long barrel rifled NEF and
                        the Khan 12ga 3.5" auto smooth bore.

                        In same guns the 570gr US-S brass slug with
                        locked on base at 1900 in 3.5" plastic worked also.
                        It is great to see a smoothbore slug like the US-S
                        that is as accurate as fullbore slugs from
                        rifled barrels.Maybe they will be imported soon
                        from European Cartridge.Ed
                        Ed Hubel

                        Comment


                        • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                          Here are couple more pictures of longer bullets
                          in sabots, loaded in plastic cases, with the
                          roll crimp down against the sabot. Both are
                          ideas tested by European Cartridge in Greece,
                          who make the US-S slugs. Both longer bullets
                          pictured have the locked on base that their
                          other US-S slugs have, for smooth bore accuracy.
                          2nd picture shows a deep hollow roll crimper
                          for doing slugs like these.Ed



                          Ed Hubel

                          Comment


                          • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                            This picture of an RC4 brand slug I see is available
                            down under. It has locked base like Brenekke.
                            And locked on without discarding petals, like US-S.

                            And 2nd picture is a group fired with RC4 slugs
                            by fellow on NitroExpress forums from
                            double 12ga, 2 left and 2 rights at 25yds.
                            This shows the posibilities of smoothbores,
                            rather than not trying to perfect them.

                            3rd picture is a discarding sabot base, and with
                            four discarding sabot carriers, with centered
                            penetrating solid bullet, from France.Ed







                            Ed Hubel

                            Comment


                            • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                              Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

                              First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
                              It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.



                              Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
                              with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.



                              Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
                              get for reloading, and we're finding that these
                              locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
                              giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
                              save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
                              grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

                              Ed Hubel

                              Comment


                              • Re: Our 12Ga From Hell

                                Some more slug and sabot ideas folks are doing.

                                First is a long pointed slug with locked on base,
                                It goes to target with base,can work smoothbore.



                                Second is picture of Hexolit sabot base slug
                                with petals expanded, sure would make bad wound.



                                Third shows a variety of Gualandi slugs you can
                                get for reloading, and we're finding that these
                                locked base slugs, Brenekke/USS style slugs, are
                                giving good accuracy in smooth barrels which can
                                save when doing heavy barrels.Weights shown in
                                grams, get our weights in grains multiply by 15.4..Ed

                                Ed Hubel

                                Comment

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