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MAXIMUM RANGE ; NATO vs YODA -------- mild steelcore update

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  • MAXIMUM RANGE ; NATO vs YODA -------- mild steelcore update

    maximum range to penetrate Yodas 3.17mm (10GA , 1/8") mildsteel sheet

    556x45___________M855 = 832M (steel tip 1033fps)*
    762x51 ___________M80 = 717M (lead core ball (BC .195 G7) 500ft.lbs. nessisary)*

    762x39 steelcore CH 'PS' = 622M (20.5"B SKS 1033fps)*
    762x39 steelcore CH 'PS' = 600M (16.25"B AK 1033fps)

    762x39 leadcore FMJ-BT = 450M (20.5"B SKS)
    762x39 leadcore FMJ-BT = 400M (16.25"B AK )
    762x39 leadcore HP- BT = 385M (16.25"B AK , Wolf)
    762x39 leadcore M67 FMJ= 400M (20.5"B SKS Barnaul = +50fps above nominal @80F.)
    762x39 leadcore M67 FMJ= 325M (16.25"B AK)

    762x39 leadcore US67FMJ= 288M (16.25"B AK)

    AR-15 5.56x45mm(16"B , no chrono data)
    M193 SoAfrican , 400M
    M193 LakeCity'99,425M


    maximum range to penetrate NATO 3.45mm (8GA)TEST PLATE

    556x45__________M855 = 640M (steel tip 1300fps)
    762x51 __________M80 = 620M (lead core ball 650ft.lbs. nessisary)

    762x39 steel coreCH'PS' = 425M (20.5"B SKS 1300fps nessisary)*
    762x39 steel coreCH'PS' = 395M (16.25"B AK 1300fps nessisary)*

    762x39 leadcore FMJ-BT = 311M (20.5"B SKS)*
    762x39 leadcore FMJ-BT = 285M (16.25"B AK)*
    762x39 leadcore M67 FMJ= 278M (20.5"B SKS)*
    762x39 leadcore M67 FMJ= 251M (16.25"B AK)*

    762x39 leadcore US67FMJ= 224M (16.25"B AK)*

    maximum range to penetrate one side of a US steel pot helmet
    NATO TEST
    556x45_________M855 =1300M (830fps)
    762x51__________M80 = 800M (1100fps , 397ft.lbs)
    CALCULATED
    762x39 steel coreCH'ps'= 823M (SKS , 912fps , 225ft.lbs. )*
    762x39 steel coreCH'ps'= 791M (AK-47, 912fps , 225ft.lbs.)*

    762x39 leadcoreFMJ-BT= 473M (20.5"B SKS 397ft.lbs.)*
    762x39 leadcoreFMJ-BT= 440M (16.25"B AK , 397ft.lbs)*

    762x39 leadcoreM67FMJ= 416M (20.5"B SKS, 397ft.lbs)*
    762x39 leadcoreM67FMJ= 384M (16.25"B AK, 397ft.lbs)*


    762x39 lead core US67 = 342M (W-W USA FMJ @ 2310fps MV chronoed from SKS, 397ft.lbs)



    * = calculated at nominal velocity and standard atmosphere 59 deg F.

    there is a slight velocity diff between the ss109 and Chinese PS (80fps) in what is nessisary to penetrate a steel helmet . i thought it fairly meningless concerning the thicker sheets/plates . as was reported in the other post ...

    http://www.assaultweb.net/cgi-bin/ul...3;t=006151;p=0

    ... by JA , the Russians claim 80/90% penetrations @900M with M43 . 830fps comes @~990M for 762x39 . i think it safe to assume my calculated range =100% penetrations .

    what passes through in these MAXimum range penetrations with LeadCoreBall is equivilant too a .32 / .22 short in the form of an elongated 'spitwad' or a distorted 'cone' . closer = larger and more powerful .
    steelcore M43 'PS' , the core only beyond 400M. core + leadsleave closer (3.17mm).
    5.556x45 , M855/ss109 , the steel tip and a tiny lead squiggle .
    5.56x45 M193 , only fragments and a eyedropper-drop-size piece of lead .
    ************************************************** ******

    'WET' BULLET PERFORMANCE
    from a 'first wet contact' Terminal Performance standpoint , with 762x39 Chinese PS rated as 1 ;

    Uly 8M3 HP -------------------------------10 , about maximum 762x39 can do ,complete fragmentation to 100/150M , yaw to flatten/jacket fracture - some frags to 200/250 , some expansion too 300M
    US and Lapua brands of SPs-------------- 6/8 , classic expansion to 200M
    Wolf,GoldenTiger,Chicom 31-'90,FMJ-BT -5/6 , yaw to 90deg by 4.5" @100M- sideways through target , faster yaw (3") at 500M
    Wolf,GoldenTiger , HP-BT -----------------3/5 ,yaw to 90deg by 4.5" - unpredictable damage trac
    M67 and US67 FMJ-FB , ALL --------------- 3 , begins to yaw at 4.5" of penetration , maynot yaw past 300M
    Barnal 123grn Soft Point ----------------- 2/6 , expand to frag at 50M , tip flattening only 100M unless bone is struck
    Klimovsk HP-BT (plastic base insert)-----.5/3 , some tip and base mangling at close range , strait-line penetration longrange .
    Chinese'PS'/ Russian'NC'-------------------1 , 9mm FMJ / 38spl RNL damage first 9" to 12"


    inches of water penetration nessisary for OBSERVABLE YAW @100M

    762x39 Barnaul SP , none through 22" (4 x 5.5" containers)tip flattening only (20.5"B)

    762x51 M80
    762x39 'PS'
    303B HXP , begins in 2nd/3rd jug (about 11"), 3rd/4th jug destroyed

    303B SoAfrican
    ALL 762x39 US67 and M67 FMJ-FB , 5.5" (1 jug) nessisary 9 out of 10 shots . 4.5" water = 1 or 2 out of 10 shots . minor variations with diff M67/US67 manufacturers

    762x39 Wolf , G-Tiger , CHicom 31-'90 FMJ-BT , 1 inch water . 100%

    [ June 28, 2004, 16:53: Message edited by: Yoda-Dad ]

  • #2
    Thanks for this.
    Was the "762x39 leadcore FMJ-BT" solid nose or air space nose?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by MartinS:
      Thanks for this.
      Was the "762x39 leadcore FMJ-BT" solid nose or air space nose?
      your welcome .

      it was Wolf but , that dont matter . the core just rams up on impact with a solid object . it seems flesh and thin bone (a single 3/4" particle board) are not solid enough . 2) 3/4" particle boards are .

      neither does it matter if HP or SP except the increased drag slows it down a little more so the Wolf HP-BT has a max of 15M less compared to the FMJ .

      besides , you cant have a 1.040" FMJ-BT that is ~120grns without either a steelcore or some space . the Specific Gravity of lead being about 11 , that of steel about 8 , copper jacket material , 9 . a normal jacketed bullet has a sp.gr. of around 10.7 . a 762x39 M43 steelcore bullet , 9.4 or so .

      the Wolf and G-Tiger have empty tip space . the Klimovosk HP has a plastic base insert a little larger than an advil tablet . their sp.gr. is still about 9.4 .

      right after the '94 ban when 762x39 was just comeing over again from Russia , one of them companies sent over some FMJ-BT that was just full-o-lead . i didnt record it but remember it being about 140grns .

      [ May 15, 2004, 12:35: Message edited by: Yoda-Dad ]

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks again. You and the other Kowabungas on this board are why I don't spring for gun magazines anymore, the good stuff is here.

        Comment


        • #5
          un-beknownst to me , aberdine proving grounds used 10GA test plates instead of the 8GA used by nato . just found this little snippit , seems to generally agree with my findings (or vis-versa)for 556x45 M193 ammo . also there is a nice APGs standard ammo chart for the 556 giving true velocity/traj/drift at range ;

          http://www.logicsouth.com/~lcoble/dir10/excs123.txt

          Comment


          • #6
            logged in the first 556x45 closerange hits on the steelsheet baffle @50M . the weapon and ammo are non-typical however , so far in the tests there has been no discernable difference in LCB of opentip HP/SP or openbase FMJ as far as penetration in sheetmetal goes .

            the weapon was an AR15 type with a 24"match upper . the ammo was BlackHills 68grn OTM . the only chrono data from the owner who said it does between 3300fps/3400fps depending .

            2 shots , penetrated 2sheets . holes in the second sheet enlarged , indented and torn open rather than 'plug punched' , ~1/2" . no 'plugs' found . on the 3rd sheet , 1shot left only crumbly splash and a very minor dent . the other a smallish backface-welt with some pieces of jacket imbedded in a sharp depression ~.250"W x .030"D . this dent overall about 10th that generated by the 9mmMak @21ft.
            the holes in the 1.5" styrafoam spacers are about 60cal exiting sheet 2 to 1" by the face of sheet 3 . this denotes a lot of fragments for a 68grn bullet . most of which seems to be vaporpaint or minute particals .

            this is performance similar to the Wolf 762x39 HP-BT which stood alone as giving the least sheetmetal penertation . since this 556x45 68gr OTM bullet / weapon combo probly gives the maximum energy available from the 556x45 - its a safe bet to assume M193 from shorter barrels will do only less . we will see .

            @400M it penetrated 1 freestanding sheet with a clean hole like the LakeCity M193 did @400M but , unlike the LC , with a telltail dent surrounding .

            [ June 07, 2004, 00:35: Message edited by: Yoda-Dad ]

            Comment


            • #7
              Yoda - curious if you have tried the 154 grain 7.62 x 39 from Wolf? ...and the performance of such if you have??? TIA -THS

              Comment


              • #8
                nope , not yet .

                none available at the local stores and the last show i went too , two vendors had individual boxes of russian 762x39 150grnish SPs (the rest only in 500/1000 round lots). one guy wanted $7.95 per box ! the other guy , an old buddy of mine , had some at a more reasonable $2.50 a box each . when i went back to his table THE GUY IN LINE IN FRONT OF ME SCARFT THEM ALL :mad:

                had great and wonderous fortune with other things though its just a matter of time . i'll test some eventully .

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks for all the info. you have provided, I will be another one who has taken notes from your notes.... -THS

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Yoda-Dad,

                    Great information, I will have to archive it for future reference.

                    The Azalin

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      forgot to mention ,

                      when the 556x45 M193s were shot at a freestanding sheet at 400/425M , the bullet remains were simply scatterd about behind on the backstop and picked up off the ground . not so with the BHs 68grn match bullet - whatever was left of them hit the backstop hard generating a cloud of dust , burried .

                      from the 50M shots its apparent that there is a piece of jacket-boat-tail with maybe some lead in it remaining after first impact , unlike the openbase 55grn FMJ .

                      that BT piece is what accounts for the slight but sharpedged .25" depression in the 3rd sheet @50M .

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Excellent Yoda,

                        One thing in question? Perhaps you can also remove the doubt from this one.
                        AK, Wolf 7.62X39 122grn. I read where this is the only grain that can be used with this barrel.
                        True or False.
                        I would like to use a heavy grain, but don't want a round stuck in my barrel if it's thicker.
                        Is it safe using a 154grn in an AK 762x39?


                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by FirstShirt:


                          One thing in question? Perhaps you can also remove the doubt from this one.
                          AK, Wolf 7.62X39 122grn. I read where this is the only grain that can be used with this barrel.
                          True or False.
                          false . plenty of twistrate to go around for heavy bullets . its just that the trajectory wont match the rearsite at longer ranges . only a couple inches diff for closer ranges .

                          Originally posted by FirstShirt:

                          I would like to use a heavy grain, but don't want a round stuck in my barrel if it's thicker.
                          Is it safe using a 154grn in an AK 762x39?


                          the heavy bullets they load in 762x39 are all about .309" to .312" diameter . no trouble with sticking a bullet in the barrel there . ? . the only time i've heard of that is with a SQUIB that farts a bullet stuck into your barrel (poof instead of BANG) . if you would just chamber another round and fire it -- KA-BOOM !
                          or - someone messing with modifying factory bullets in such a way that the core shoots out of the bullet , leaving the jacket stuck in the barrel -- next shot rifle goes KA-BOOM !

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            mild steel core update

                            or should i say , sintered iron core . it dont matter 'cuz they act the same . from that 70s' Romanian 7.9mm mauser load that comes in cans for cheap . 155grn FMJ-BT sinterediron core bullet only slightly shorter than standard 198grn sS FMJ-BT LCB .
                            if you've seen Lollygagers pics of 'fish plate' hits with 762x39 'PS' , scale that up by 1.5 to 1.75 for the Romanian 7.9mm load . better have your helmet and bodyarmor on too ... what appered to be a 1/2 length core , shaped like a trumpet , bounced off my 1.5" thick 'bridge pad' @25M , back through 1/2" plywood like nothing , on its way to the moon ...

                            @50M fired at the 3.17mm sheet steel baffle with 1.5" between the sheets - SLIGHTLY better performance than HXP303 and 762x51 M80 'PINDAD' , both leadcore-copper-jacket ball , that is , penetrated 3 sheets too dent the 4th , the Romanian with a deeper dent . deeper by 1/3rd , not all that much . recovered cores looked just like the 762x39'PS' cores from the same test , scaled up some . none of the other LCB 8mm loads dented the 4th sheet although they knocked a hole in the 3rd -- a HUGE HOLE . dents were equivalent to that of 12GA Foster slug @25ft.
                            penetration wise , not counting the enormous dents , the 762x39'PS' did as well from 20.5" barrels (2411fps)

                            @400M , this is where the differences are .

                            762x39 'PS' (2311fps) , the 303 (2460fps) and 2 8mm mauser loads- 198grn copperjacket YUGO (2378fps) and the powerfull platedsteel jacket 196grn S&B load (2535fps) ,,, all these penetrate 1 sheet @400M and hit the second with ALMOST enough . the huge dents by the 8mm s', the cracked dents from the 303 (but no penetration) , the tiny (in comparison) but deep welted dent from the AK round that shows yield in the steel .

                            the Romanian round (about 2470fps AVE.) handily penetrated 2 sheets , sometimes leaving the jacket stuck in sheet 2 , to dent the 3rd . these proving to be about 60/70% of what the sheet could take before penetration . a little heavier bullet (Greek M38 7.9mm steelcore) a little faster and/or smaller diameter ( 762x54r 148grn PS) and penetrating 3 sheets @400M is a done deal .

                            all the recoverd cores were just like those recoverd from the 762x39 , just scaled up some . if anything the Romanian cores are softer than Chinese cores and swell up/flatten out more .

                            SO , mildsteel core ammo has the definate advantage (over leadcore ball) through sheetsteel at longer ranges and though cinderblock at any range .

                            at closer ranges , not so much a penetration advatage in sheetsteel but , since the core remains mostly intact , a better fragmented bullet chunk to hit the BG with .

                            Comment


                            • #15


                              I can archive this info if needed. It's no problem.

                              Mike

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